Box Art vs. Your Own Style

Mini Matters, a miniature painting podcast. I guess that's it. That is the intro. Welcome everybody to episode 4 of the Mini matters, the beautiful Illustrious podcast. Illustrious is like volume of thing. Anyway, myself, Jamie are now hello and Martin. Hello. Good day everybody. It's been a beautiful week. I think it's the sun is shining and we're all together and that by proxy means it's a beautiful week. The whole week is now beautiful because we've spent time together. I clearly agree.

That's that's how it feels to me. It's been, it's been a good week. It's very sunny here. It's actually warm again, just confusing. Yeah, and. Annoying and as as as as is always the case now I'm I've been looking forward to this. I've missed you and this is going to be a great a great episode. Albert, we'll enjoy this three best friends forever. That's three best friends. Just us 3 and no one else. I couldn't. Even imagine who that would be. I am looking forward to Golden Demon though when we get the old crew back and the the two real best friends Albert and myself. Are we the the were you in the original 3 best friends are now or is it just me and Albert? Well, you started before before.

I mean you, you two met before me. Yeah, but we weren't 2 best friends forever until we go on a trip. Yeah, you did say it first when we went to. OK, yeah, somewhere. So we are the three and Martin, it's it's a pleasure to have you, but obviously when we go to Golden Diva, we will be probably the five or six best friends forever. So. Appreciate it. That's that's going to be an incredible group. It's it's looking like, yeah, like an almost an almost too good group like self combustion level. Great group like if you find them.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't miss it for for anything in the world. Our Catan Catan games at night and Oh Catan. I thought you were talking about. Sorry. Yeah, Yes. Well, right. So I'll quickly go into the you thought you. Was making a reference to Catalan because there. Yes, I did. Exactly. And I was like you. Yeah, we were. Fucking Catalan a lot. Right, so today's episode lads, and we actually probably have 5050 on because we've got 4 listeners and I'm pretty sure one of them is a woman. So that's at least 25%, which is pretty good. But so by we say that's today we have the meat of it, of course is box art versus GW box arts.

It's an interesting topic because we we happen to have an X heavy metal painter and an ex painter. Now you're still current, but yeah, a box up painter. So I'm actually interested to see to see if that meat is actually any meat. There might not be much meat to that conversation at all. We are bringing back the QA. So we've had two or three questions now in Discord. And that QA, of course, is you can write any question you want, anything at all, is it's, it's legit. You can ask me Martin, or are now a question and we will answer it live on air, except that it's not live.

We have Grotbusters, of course, a fan favorite. I can't stop the the amount of emails we've had. We've had two. And letters on the mailbox. Yeah, yeah, like the old school. I, I, I'm actually really grateful for those two lads who did send it in. You know who you are. I, I, I would like to offer a prize for it, but we would, I mean like there's no price we could possibly give. Ever. I disagree. At some point, here's what we'll do. At some point, not this week, maybe not next week, but we're going to eventually offer an absolutely amazing price. But we won't tell you when that is. All you can do is keep and green. Sneaky.

Because we've got some. I mean, certainly Jamie does and I know I do too. Some incredible like Warhammer related memorabilia and like collectible stuff, old miniatures, some shit that we could potentially give away and I'm sure I like. We have we have people to give away like. We have like. You've got like too much if. I where I'm sitting right now, if I just reach out my arm and grab something that could be a really good. Yeah, me too. Me too. That's what's. Happening in this room. Joke joke jokes aside, I I I do have a lot I could give away. However, we would have to do something like an online free like audio cut that clip, put it onto your page. What's that thing called that you guys have Instagram and be like to enter the competition, listen to this or send in your do you know what I mean?

Yeah, we want to reward for listeners too. 4 Just by entering they'll by proxy have A1A1 in four chance of winning like. Yeah, but they'll be the only ones who have a chance at all of winning is what are now saying that should we should reward people for listening to this podcast. If if by by I mean what I'm offering now is incredibly exciting. And if that leads to 700 people tuning in next week because people tell people who tell people who have friends who like Warhammer collectibles. I mean, they're really good. Surprises we've got are amazing. I mean, if we were to give them away, they are. We should not get outside the podcast, but that, yeah, I think it's a great idea.

So we've got GW hype, GD hype, which is what we were already alluding to. So we will dive into that properly. So they are the non optional segments of today's show. We will cover those 4 segments without fail. OK, that's, that's a promise. And then the optional things that obviously the, the new segment things I hate, right? That's where Jamie basically says one thing that he hates a week. And I've actually got two things on there now. Then we've got Rebel Moon, which I'm jolly well excited to get through. Have you seen it on out? The first one. We could talk about the first one we and then we've got the elder project update, which actually there is an update interestingly.

I can't wait for that. Thank you mate. We've got Dan de de Dan again. That's a little bit on the back burner so. And then the last one is the release cycle for GW that is now 4 weeks in the waiting. I suspect we will get through one of those optional things. So to start off, let us go into the GD hype, golden demon hype. So for everybody who is not aware, we obviously have a what's that thing called in a band where a super group. We have a super group of friends going. OK, we have me the only person who probably isn't painting, but I'm not the gel. I'm not the glue, I'm not the I'm not the I'm not because you guys know each other even even if I wasn't there. But anyway.

You are an unexpectedly good painter as well, so you are definitely a painter in that group. I, I, I have since painted in the past. Yes, I'm, I'm retired now. I feel like I'm like a a police officer who was four days away. From this with absolute flows and it's on its way up now because of this what we're talking about now if nothing else. The podcast hasn't You're at the Corner. You're you're listing the the band members. So it's it's you. Yes, are now Lazaroff now that's his real name, people don't know it.

He goes by. I changed it legally. To that, yeah. Well, it's because he doesn't trust English people, says they're too ignorant to pronounce words properly, so he just calls himself. Then we have Martin Peterson. I like to call you Paterson. His name, you say it correctly. Yeah, just about. I mean, it's just a. This is a very English name. Is it wrong? Yeah, no, it's it's, that's definitely good. That's not how it's pronounced in Swedish, but who gives a shit?

Oh wow. I've literally chosen for it to to be written in a way that's easier for you to. That's how I pronounce his name. That's why he's called Lazaro, not Lazarothov. So we've got the three. I to be honest, I should have just said we three are going. You could, but it's nice to have a little a little brief and a little a little fluff text to describe who we are in the context of this group. But then who else is going this is the this? Is the reason we obviously have Albert Rometto font? Yeah, who we all know and love and cherish. The only thing I don't like about Albert is we don't go to GBK enough.

So that's a side note. We don't need to go into that. And then we have Mark Mascarens, the fully Spanish painter, and that's so that's 512345. Then we have a guy called Skew Skiff. Skippy I I thought I saw this was going to be tricky. For you dig dig dig dig diggy. How? Close, I couldn't hand it over to the phone here, but you're, I mean pretty. The 1st letter is skew. Entirely. I've spoken to him once at GTW Ski I. Think you'll have to? But yeah, you'll give me of.

Course, yeah, that's it, Sine. Stihan Stihan fuck. Yeah, but see, then just then when you said it, that's exactly how it's pronounced, Steven. That's only because that's. Sounding yes the entre Dean Steven just Steven Steven the the the vowel is like the is like this thing. Steven, Steven, Steven. And then he's. He's joining the band as well and that makes 6 and I don't think there's a 7th. Well then, I mean, not yet. It might be a while. I get you.

We don't even know. Yeah, you don't want the audience knowing the 7th, even though there is. So I'd say no more. Don't worry about it. I get it. Hush, hush. Mum's the word. The 7th member. We all know us guys. But you don't. I don't know why. It's fine. So 7. When are we talking about this? When no, we're on air with what do you mean? Why are we talking about this? We're listing the people. Who would just to chat on Skype? Yes, we are going. We are the six best friends forever and we've rented a truck or a van and that's all I wanted to say on it really.

We're renting a van. Yeah, because you're in charge of the the vehicle renting. So that's how you wanted to point that out. We're also staying together in the same place and at least five of us are competing in Golden Demon. I am the last yes. So all six of us are definitely competing in Golden Demon 100% and Arnow and I have been offering regular updates on our entries, which so far so far, instead of of me saying fuck and then Arnow saying I'm painting an Infinity diorama and I have, I have to say it makes me a little more a little less stressed to know that Arnow hasn't even started, but only how I know. Relatively, not only haven't even started, I went today to the exchange workshop in Kingston and I had to bought to buy primer and stuff and I said let's buy the the chaplain. There was no chaplain in in store. And then I said, yeah, well,

let's look at the Blood Angels range because I also wanted to buy the Sangina in case I could use the torso or stuff. There was only one box of of Blood Dangers in the whole store, and it was the Combat patrol. There was nothing else. I was deeply offended by that. So yeah, I don't even have the stuff that I have to paint. So are you saying you're throwing in the towel and just not going to come? Because that sounded like a defeatist attitude, if I'm honest.

No, it means that I have. My update is that I went to buy something and I couldn't. Yeah, you were just you were just letting us know how you've how you've been getting on. So if if our listeners are not following are now on Instagram, what the fuck are you doing with your life? And if you are, you will have seen that he's finished an Infinity diorama for Corpus Belly, which means that you're now free to pursue Slayer's sword winning entries to our are you not? Are you still doing other shit? Yeah, I have a massive well. The art tone comes before the TD, and that's a big one. Are you?

Why are you doing that before? I don't think you can. Sorry because MC is before CD. Oh. By week or now it's. It's one week before. That's incredible. So you're actually doing an entry for SMC simultaneous. Yes. No, not simultaneous. And that's not going to. Open a big one on that. Because you haven't sculpted it yourself, correct? These these goes to open and we we I mean not not entity in SMC that's. What I want, you're not bringing it to yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you bring it to GD but don't enter it because we want to see it up close. Yeah, but it's a massive, like it's massive. So I stand by.

It's a bit of a yeah. Well, why can't you just tell everyone you sculpted it a golden demon and then just enter it? Because I don't. Everyone knows that I I didn't because Joaquin already published it. And also, I'm not a liar. Yeah, I wouldn't lie either. No, I wouldn't lie about that. Yeah, because that was my nose growing. Here's the question you just mentioned now that you're buying a chaplain and you mentioned Blood Angels. So for anyone who doesn't know what you're entering, are you happy to tell them what you're entering or?

Probably what I still I'm not sure yet. OK. So I will be sure, probably I'll tell, I'll tell you exactly when I will be sure. I will be sure the in September the. That's. The day he gets back from the fucking SMC. Are you saying you're after SMC full full blaze GD mode? I'm I'm going to, I'm going to be the 3rd of October. I'm going to be completely sure of what I will do and so. That gives you.

Yeah, that's three. Yeah, 2020. Third is when we're leaving, I, I hope. So 13 days, that's actually enough time from now. 13 days. Well, not yeah because I have SMC before so I leave on Friday so it's like 4 days left. But yeah, whatever, I'll just. Yeah, yeah. Gives you about a month then to finish your GD entry, which for you should be. I mean plenty of time. It's it will be two weeks. That's two weeks. What it didn't you say?

Didn't you say October 3rd? Yeah, but but before there's SMC, the week before is SMC. So from from Friday to Tuesday, I wouldn't, I cannot paint because I will be at SMC. I see. What you're saying? Yeah, Yeah, of course. Of course. It's just over 2 weeks then. Yeah, that's right. Well, OK, two weeks is, I mean it's not ages, but for you that should be fine, right? I think what I mean last year. Yeah, the last two Diamas, I did them in two weeks. I hope, I hope I absolutely insane. Yeah, I think now it's basically saying you should panic and do not put me on your time. Another rely on my I.

Got that, I got that. And I'm, I'm if I'm still panicking no matter what Arnell is doing with his entry, I know that you are unbelievably fast by my by my standards. Like I know people will occasionally paint the whole miniature in one day. It's not like an inhumanly fast thing to do, but I, I, I didn't work like that at all. But I'm really looking forward to seeing whatever you do enter. It's going to be good. And, and not just me, I think. I think what I was getting at is how do you feel about keeping entries a secret? Because some people we know and and others will. I think we've definitely seen an an uptick in the culture of keeping entries secret.

What do you think about? That between. Friends. I don't, I don't mind. I just generally when I look at, when I look at Instagram few weeks before GD, like the last couple of years, it's definitely become a thing. So like, I know Albert doesn't want to show stuff off, no. Not showing is fine, I think. I think not showing is actually better because then it gives some importance to the actual date of Golden Dawn. I hate, I hate with all my life being to to, to a contest and knowing everything that's in it. I hate.

That it's awful. So having all these secret entries and then the showing day, I think that's amazing. That's the best thing we could do. But telling people what I'll do, Yeah, that's not a problem. Yeah, that's fair. I I totally get that. It's actually, Albert said something that I hadn't really thought about, which I thought was really nice, is that if you keep like a like photos of your entry basically revealing what it looks like, what you're describing, no one's seen it before and you actually post it. Because we're all quite into, I guess, using Instagram and watching other people's stuff on Instagram. And if you post it on the day when you but once people get to see it in the cabinets at a competition, it becomes nice for the people that couldn't go.

It's sort of like A and I thought it was nice to to to have that sort of synergy where someone who couldn't come to the event can still enjoy it on the day or see it on the day. Feel like it's a little bit of an event like you said I. Agree, it's it's much better that way. Otherwise, you're the the excitement and the newness is gone. Just like just it's OK. It's still nice to see the things in real life, but it doesn't have that same impact. How's your update then? Me, me Well, Martin, but yeah, you can.

You can tell us. I so since last week I've painted most of the bodies of I'm. I'm doing some space Marines. I've painted most of the armor on 4 space Marines, which feels excellent. It feels really good. Undercoat or painted No. No painted. I mean like I've that is. Quite. A good thing. Yeah, so the so I I do like the sub assembly. So they don't have any arms, heads or backpacks.

So it's legs and body. But I've done 4 miniatures to like basically complete, which I mean you should. Probably share that with like a physical photo with us, not not. The I might, I might do, I might do. I need to get proper pictures because I want to get some feedback on where I'm at. Yeah, between us, I'll, I'll share pictures when I when I do stuff, I always share the pictures in the yeah, in the tat. And I need to get better at that. I did. I did a few days ago. I sent some photos to Albert amongst others and he gave me some good input and I thought this is great now I know where I'm going this. Is this is a perfect doll so I'm glad that you painted. I'm surprised only because of the previous three updates were they weren't that they were shit it. Was slow going, Yeah, slow going. And then once I started actually painting, now I've really been able to put in some hours and it feels like it's, it feels like I've spent a lot of time at my desk, but I'm very happy with how far I've gotten already.

So I need to figure some shit out with the entries, but it's it's going pretty well. Is it still fun to do? That's a really good question. I think, yeah, I think it's been more fun now painting something that I'm relatively happy with and, and I enjoy the process as well than it has been in a long time. I think a lot of the Commission stuff that I've done has been, it's hard to describe, but it's a level of fun where it's nice and relaxing and sort of fun enough. I'm very happy to do it.

But I'm also conscious. I'm always aware that this isn't really what I want to be doing. I don't, I'm not really getting anything at the end of this. I'm not learning enough, I'm not trying enough new things, that sort of sense. Sounds like work. And again, it's not like the Commission stuff. I don't I think it's good the stuff I've painted for Commission because I want it to be, but it's just it's not quite as exciting as and the and the whole point of this project was like why? I want to make it as good as I can, obviously, but really, really not being too like lenient on myself.

It's easy for me to go into that kind of like I know exactly where sort of the every metal standard is, not to sound arrogant, but I think I can kind of do that now, like a typical every metal paint job. And so I want it to be much, much better than that essentially. And then we'll see how that goes. But that's, yeah, it's easy to easy to say that and then be really disappointed with everything you do. OK, I'm just going to quit. Interesting. That plays perfectly into that's. Right. Does the and then you want you meet again. It's medium rare, right?

Oh, well done. That's the meat of it. Jingle now I will. It's a really fine. Jingle of A use. It doesn't make any sense. I you see a problem? With the fact that if a Jingle is just your voice, then people can't really tell that it's a Jingle. No, you'll get used to it. Let me just play that one for you again. I actually think this is the Jingle that we didn't use in the end, but but just just this is. This is we did use it. Do you? Want you meet again? It's medium rare, right? Oh well done. So he's the butcher, but at the same time he's cooking.

He's like, pick one. Are you cutting meat or are you cooking meat? It's not important. This is the second meat of it. OK, right, There you go, that's £12.68 or 12 sausages and one steak. OK, so. That's I like this one better. Yeah, I don't think you'll use the other one. I think this is the one. How much dialogue did you record for this Jingle? Is it like a whole conversation? It's just a bloke in the meat shop ordering, ordering meat, isn't it? Right. So what was this on? On our answers.

I don't know what this one is on. AL's gonna bloody answer that, isn't he? Anyway, that's the Jingle for meat a bit. Ignore our now answers it. So we are into the meat of it now. This week's. Oh well, my GW update Golden Daemon update is I haven't done anything. So to the meat of it, box arts versus GW box arts. OK, now this leads this leads very nicely into what Martin was saying about he can do better than he thinks what he would do on a day-to-day in his old job.

Now, the reason why it matches into, I don't know if you did that deliberately mine, but like, is it to be better? Is it because you're adding harder techniques or you're adding more? What's that word? Lighting effects or shit like that. That's that's the real question. And I think that's essentially what I said to I said it quite despairingly to a friend of mine that like, I don't know what to add to make it better.

This was, this was interesting because it was like Saturday night. I went to a friend's house to play kill team. Really fun. Kill Team is a good game. I lost horribly, but it was fun. Had fully painted miniatures with me and everything. And I was talking to him on the way there and said that like, I, I, because he was asking like, do you know what you want to add and, and what you want to do, but you can't do it. And I said, no, no, I, I don't even know what exactly to do. And I painted this, you know, half of a space Marine. And I said, I, I, I, this is pretty much where like an heavy metal sort of paint job would be.

And like, as a general caveat, I want to say this like, I, in no way do I think that an heavy metal paint job quality or anything is easy for no one. Is it easy even for people have been on the team? It's not necessarily easy, but I think at this point I, I, I'm pretty sure I can like I said, I can deliver essentially that type of standard and that style for sure. So I know kind of where that is and then I can do better or worse on a given model. So some of the stuff I did for work I think is really good and some I think is really bad, but it's all kind of within that good enough scope, right? So some of the stuff that they've, they've done now I've really, it's really stood out to me. It's like, wow, this is fucking good. And it's not like good for every metal. It's just really good.

But anyway, so I, I wasn't really quite sure how to approach it, to give it that extra oomph. Like something, something was, I felt like it was missing. And then I sent some photos to Albert and he did a little sketching and procreate and essentially the, the thing was like, add more contrast, add more volumes, add more volumetric highlights, which makes sense. It's a little more like the way he paints, but it's also kind of, I guess, maybe a little more interesting way of rendering it. And that's sort of where it ended up is like, it feels now like I've painted it in the style I, I do and with the techniques I'm used to, but it's got more volumes and I, I don't know, it just looks a little more interesting.

And I've been looking at some Space Marines that I thought were really well painted that don't stray really far out of the kind of comfort zone where I'm at. And I thought that, yeah, that's kind of what's happening. It's more interesting and a little more volumes and textures and things like that. So it's. Yeah, that I think that kind of answers your question. For me, when, when, when I I'll try to not be too arrogant. The if you, if you. Start with that.

Now we know that that all that's coming is arrogance. No, no, no, because I mean, I, I like heavy metal style when I go to the to the museum, I always enjoy deeply seeing that. But I, I, I think that it has a very low ceiling. And the moment you want to improve upon that, you have to go away from that style. And improving up upon the, the, let's say peak heavy metal style means adding the stuff outside of it, which is volumetric, highlights, other type of, of stuff like more textures, more, you know, all these things.

So I think the the traditional, you know, box art or heavy metal style from GW, it has a very low, not, not very low, but the low potential ceiling that. You mean because once you once you get there, you are just there? As in exactly. The only thing that you can improve is being more neat, being more fine or more precise or more etcetera. And then the moment you want to get to the next level, you have to add things outside that style. You know what I mean?

I know what you mean, and I think that's been an attitude for a long time. As far as the style is concerned, people think that that defines the style. I would argue that really that is a constraint on the timing because there is always the element of having to deliver any paint job to a deadline. And when I was there, I feel like every conversation was about how, how long does it take to do something, but also likes what is the best we can possibly do for with that time. And all of the things you're describing now, like I, I get what you mean, but things like volumetric highlights, more contrast and textures is stuff that is absolutely there in a lot of heavy metal paint jobs.

And there's a place for all of that in heavy metal paint jobs given the time. It's just that a lot of the time we don't, you know? It's like it's for example, like the the Night Bringer, the Nightbringer, I think it's one of the best box arts lately. And it I think it it goes out of the traditional heavy metal style. And I I'm not saying that GW doesn't do things outside that traditional style because they do and they and they keep doing more and more, but you know, to, to differentiate like these two styles. Yeah, I think because I also, I also work with time constraints. So it's not that we have different pressures, we have the same pressure and we we simply choose different paths. What?

What would you say that you, is there anything that you feel like you're compromising on with the with your paint jobs? Essentially, is there anything that you think if I had more time, I would do this? Is it just neatness? Well yeah, I've got another thing to drop in there though like you your time saving are now I don't know if this is too far. Your time saving will be how to make it still look relatively the same. In fact they're both the same technique I guess look the same but take less time. GW will always see or also be wanting to do that. Anything difference I can see there is you. It's a lot harder to take shortcuts in the heavy metal style than.

It is. Yeah, absolutely. But this isn't really that, well, the, the, the meat of it actually is box arts versus GW box arts. So there's so many facets that we can go into that like because that's open-ended meat of it, but it wasn't necessarily which was better. No, and it won't be. I'll say that too. Like I think it's really weird to try to define one as being better than the other. I have always felt, and I will be like that guy. I'm going to defend every metal whenever someone seems to imply that that's somehow easier or easy because it's not and fuck you. But and it's it's it it also that does make it sound a bit like that's kind of for kids.

And then there's real painting with real miniatures. And I feel like not only is that not really true, but also there is again, like that scope, I think to do other things. And the net bringing is a great example because it's I I wouldn't say, and I know that's not what you're saying. I wouldn't say that that's oh, it's, it's so weird because it's it's heavy metal, but it's also very different. Like, yeah, that's also an heavy metal paint job. It's literally an heavy metal paint job, but I think it fits in to that style. Yeah, but it's, and it's, it's, it's weird how it becomes even, you know, with, with that style being defined as it is. Like there's obviously so much room for creativity and for variation.

So why, why do we even try to define it that much when we wouldn't do the same with, you know, the Corvis belly paint style or the Hera models paint style or whatever it is Corvis. Belly because it's very defined. It's there's there's one key thing that differentiates these two styles 111 key thing that makes it completely different from everything else. Like I'm and I'm telling it's different from from art whatsoever, which is the removal of a light source. The the moment you take that from the equation, you have a very special and different kind of art because you are not painting light and colour, you are painting to enhance a sculpture and that's so different from painting a light source. These two things are, for me, the key things that separate one from the other.

So you're saying that every metal style is painting without a light source? Most. Most of the time, yeah. Yeah, I was. I don't. Agree. I think there's there's definitely a light source, it's just much broader. It's essentially looking at it like it's in a unusually well lit space. There's not enough the. Night bringing. Yeah, there's not a light. Source. Fulgrim Light source. But if you look at your average Space Marine not character, there's less of a light source, no? Sure, sure. But I'm, I'm saying there is still some consideration for things like yeah, yeah, like the light coming from above and adding shadows and highlights. And certainly I get what you're saying though, but I'm not sure it really applies that it's like an absence of a light source. But yeah, maybe I, I, I've been thinking of of like if you compare it to any other war game, isn't that just what they look like?

Isn't that to make armies make sense and photography where you add light yourself? Well, there's, there's a lot of school behind the heavy metal style as it was the first and it's the most, I mean, it's the the spearhead. But, but I, I really think that there's not a cohesive light source. And there's things that that obey a light source, but there's other things that don't. So that and and it's, I'm not saying that it's bad, it's just, it's just a fact. Yeah.

No, I get what you mean and it is interesting. Sorry. Go ahead. No, no, no, I mean they, they, they serve a purpose. And when, when you say, you know, when you see them in real life, you understand how why that's made for me. I, I, I don't even question this. This is something that it's, it's, you know, I always understood this as a, as a thing, but I never considered it like, but or not. It's just a choice and it's just a race. It is definitely very instinctive. It's hard to look at any like Warhammer miniatures and not sort of just see it see the paint job as part of the sculpture, I guess.

But it's interesting when you look at the purpose of that style as well. And I think there's probably a lot to say about this, but in my, as far as I'm concerned, in my understanding is that the main kind of reason why the style looks the way it does is it was always intended for photography, which I think maybe people forget. And to be fair, so is the stuff you do, I mean, very literally, you take the photos yourself. So like they're also for photography, but it's there to describe the miniature so that you can take pictures of it. And, and, and for that you also get things like really, really bright colors and really sharp, not just sharp, but bright highlights is because cameras in the 80s, or rather the print like prints of white dwarf and of catalogs and stuff were a bit shit.

So having really bright colors made the models look much more interesting. I think that's easy to forget now because you have like, I mean, even the, the modern white dwarf looks way better than it did in the 80s. And the, the cameras are better, the lighting is better. The photography's has sort of improved generally. So, yeah, so like I, I think that's something that informed the style 30 years ago and then we've just kind of been rolling with it, even though we could have introduced a lot more subtlety given, again, things like the cameras, the lighting and the website, you know, now we can just upload like 4K pictures and people can see them in a really different setting.

I quite like the way they've maintained the style though, in a in a really weird way. I feel like it's made it more unique because everybody else is lent towards this other side. Like, I don't know, like like when I see every metal paint jobs, sorry, golden demon, like the stuff that wins or that's not even true, because sometimes you get stuff that wins, like a space marine in wins silver. But like when you see the paint jobs that move away from it, I think it's really nice to see what you can do with that canvas and turning into something else. Right? But I think I would I would feel less that way if every every model was painted that way on the heavy metal website or GW. If that was the norm, it would be less exciting. Also, I don't see how anybody buying a model from a, you know, 99.5% of the painters wouldn't be able to recreate that. You know, you go and see someone's army that they're playing and it's like a decently laid out army, 100 models and then all of a sudden if you add

100 models with, you know, xenotal lighting and realistic shadows and it would just be overwhelming. I think. I still don't think you could have an army painted hyper realistic in quotes on the tabletop. I know you disagree on our I still just think it would look because then you've got like the fucking floor and all the terrains and everything is dog shit and then all of a sudden you've got this army looking. You don't get it, you screw sort of screw face. Yeah, I don't get it. I like. I like I like the style of GW and I think that when you have a blocked out thing it it looks better on a table.

I, I, I like it too. Don't get me wrong, I like it too. You know how I enjoy and we spend hours in in the museum. It's not something I'll do or I, I would like to do because it's not how I want to paint, but it's not. It doesn't mean that I can enjoy seeing it. I, I do enjoy it, but I don't think it's necessarily better for the table. I mean, it's yeah, I, I don't, I don't know.

I never seen, I've never seen a full blown pictorial army. I've never seen that and I don't think I will. Yeah, well, you're yeah to go back to the high ceiling thing, right. So like the night bringer and should probably look at the model again, but also full grim and and those things aren't they removed from what you would stereotypically consider a heavy metal paint job. And and and that's the ceiling. You know, they're going in, they're going more away from. Yeah, that's what I meant.

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. They are still heavy metal paint jobs. All these exceptions to me are are are still like they're not really exceptions. That's just people on the team pushing the boundaries and and making the style like what it can be essentially. Yeah, but let's imagine that and it will not happen. Obviously I'm not. Yeah, OK. I'm not sure. If I go, for example to GW and I paint a box art in my style, will that be a metal style? It won't.

Not because I am a Navy metal painter. That becomes the style. I mean obviously if if a Navy metal painters painted it, it's from. Yeah, I get what you're. Saying, but it's not what we're talking about. It's more about the established style of, you know, and there's things that go outside of that and there's things that stick to that very, very religiously, like like Space Marine squads, like this is the quintessential Navy metal style, you know? And then I think that some new stuff and mostly some heroes and and stuff like that goes out of that rule set. In that.

And sometimes it goes away hard, like in in the in the Nightbringer. I still think they're close enough that you would, if you look at that model, you would instantly know which team paint. I I still agree with Martin. It, it it's what they've done is it's still like 99 billion percent heavy metal, just with a slight twist or flavour of, of pushing the boundary. Like you would never pick that model up and go. That's not you would know it's heavy metal, right? I need to find the model to actually. Check, I think or now if you actually joined heavy metal and painted exactly as you want to paint, there would be a sort of you would need, you would need to adapt, but you wouldn't need to change, if that makes sense.

You you could still paint the way you want to paint. And certainly with your understanding of light, that would be a great benefit and something that you could use. So yeah, you're right. It wouldn't just be like paint however you want. But I think, I don't know, maybe this is just my opinion as well. Is that like the heavy metal style should always not just evolve but like grow and not be afraid to try new things and moving in a direction that essentially is just makes stuff? I'm, I'm all up for it.

I mean, I think. That's all I'm saying is like, I wish it was more like what you're describing. It's inevitable, I think actually because people, because now actually people in the studio is going to, to shows and they're picking stuff from other places and it's the same as me, for example, I'm the other side of the spectrum. I was my, my, my head was inside my butt hole in, in the painting aspect, right? I was focused on this light sources and stuff and, and I, I completely dismissed heavy metal style. But then I came to live to, to England and I, I, I saw a lot of heavy metal style in, in real life and a lot of other painters that paint in this, in this style and I loved it. And that made me absorb things from that style, which I will apply and I do apply to my, to my proper style. So I think it's the more we go outside our comfort zones and we, the more we share, the more

we, we see things from other people, we evolve. And that's what happens. It's it's inevitable that the more the heavy metal painters go outside and meet with other types of painters, they will change and evolve. And yeah, that's that's another thing I feel. Yeah. And I, I really hope so. I think again, like from what I could from my, from what I, my experience working there was the only real like constraint was time. And there was certainly from a lot of the painters on the team, a real ambition to get better and to do more interesting things and evolve and, and basically maybe even, you know, make a point almost like be the best painters in the world. If Games Workshop still ever wants to claim that in some marketing somewhere, like we have the best miniature painters, maybe try to see if we can't make that true. And I think, yeah, that's

certainly a way towards that is to never really see the style as like, too, too much of A box to begin with. Not just thinking outside of the box, but like, maybe there doesn't have to be 1. Maybe that style is kind of make sure that everything we paint fits in with the stuff that's been painted before, but then looks as the best it can possibly be. I think that's really kind of what it's all about. Yeah, there's, there's some complications in that, I feel because when, when you have a, I'm not sure if I, I'll be able to articulate my thoughts now.

But when you have a style that's very defined and then you go outside this, this style to, to improve and evolve, some things will be wrong in a sense. And, and you know, I'm a firm believer that not everything works and not everything is permitted in a sense. I mean, obviously it is, but cohesion and, and, and sticking to your to your idea, I think it's the the primary goal. And if you and talking about light sources, as we were talking about, for example, if I'm trying to evolve my painting and I'm trying to, to start adding some light sources, these light sources are an absolute thing. So you cannot pick and choose what how you play with them. This is, you know, it's a Lysos and the Lysos touches everything equally.

So I guess it's actually a cool debate to have because it's that part of the style to have some things from one and some things from the other. Is it, if it's I, I, I believe that if it's cool, it's cool and that's it. This is the primary thing for for me when if I have to judge something, the first thing I want to be is looking at the cool figure. The rest is. But yeah, I think it's not, it's not easy that that line between styles and between principles. So, so here's a question if if you were, because I know I think most of the stuff that you've painted that are box arts are it's a lot of busts, it's a lot of larger scale stuff, but it is definitely single figures, right? Yeah.

I mean, you don't do like tanks and squats, so if no. So if you were doing just for argument's sake, something that was closer to that, like your your style, but painting like a small army, do you think you would adapt the style at all? Or do you think it would be just a matter of like kind of compromising where you could to speed it up? Like if we ignore timing, do you think that you would apply it the same way in terms of light sources? I think so. Yeah.

Obviously. Yeah, I think so. I don't think I would compromise in a sense that I don't need all of them to look exactly the same. I mean, I, yeah, I feel like I would want to have heterogeneity in a sense that if if someone has, you know, an explosion light in one side and the other one hasn't, that's not a problem. I mean, it's not like they are in the same set position all the time, you know?

So yeah, I don't think I would change anything. Because I think 11 consideration as well with the style and, and this is it's an interesting one because whenever we do stuff like an every metal painter will do, like, you know, we do the, the challenges in white Dwarf or whatever, and it's just a single figure, much more like a golden demon entry and you can do whatever you want. It's easy to kind of forget almost that this doesn't have to look good next to anything else. This isn't we don't have the army. We don't have 10 people painting all together on on a project.

Because I think that also really influences the style is consistency in in every way. So like the color, the way lights are placed, you know, highlights and just the tone of everything. Like how far do you pull down a shadow when you glaze or something like that needs to really work across all of the miniatures you paint. It might be 10 miniatures painted by two different people. I've I've done that a few times and it's as like fun and cool as it is to actually have someone next to you and work on a squad together and constantly compare them to make sure that they line up together. That's also quite difficult and it really removes a lot of that. I guess you could call it creativity. So I suppose that's a really big part of it as well. It's like the efficiency of the whole thing. It's not just a creative choice, it's also something that's really practical.

If you look. At What are your thoughts, Jamie, about this? Yeah, if you look at the Night Bringer, I shared the thing in the reaction group and Discord. It's an interesting one because the original, the original Night Bringer had N&M, right? And it was one of the only two ones that I remember, Dante and this guy. And actually, I still think that paint job's pretty cool, considering it's from the early early 2000s, I guess. I think it's one of the best metallics. The GW of yeah, yeah, it's pretty tight, but.

We're looking at the. Yeah, right. This is the new one. Yeah, Because the original 1 is. I'm pretty sure Martin Footed did that. I shouldn't be pretty sure I should be 100%, but I'm 99%. That was Martin Footed. Yeah, it's legendary. Yeah, amazing. But I look at the new one and it's, it's still unmistakably heavy metal, right? Like there's some logic source lighting. If you look at the the sleeve at the back, it's got turquoise coming up from the thing, which is cool. You've got, you've got a slight N and MI guess on the legs and the arms and the head, but but it feels less like it.

It feels much more natural. And then so yeah, like then you've got some nice patterns on the, on the cloaks, you know, around the bottom of the face. And you know, you've got a focus point that you would see traditionally not in heavy metal. So, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting. What's the word but? What? You're saying that there's no focus points in heavy metal paint? No, I'm saying it's normally I would say so. Like let me look at the new Ravenous, for example. It's less of a focus point on the let me show you these models as well. There's less of a focus point, I would say than the exactly reactions.

Maybe there shouldn't go reactions, but it's the only place I can work out how to do it. I would say if you look at those ravenous, right, like they are generally, yeah. Because you're not. You're not. Guiding the. Eyes are you? Yeah, yeah, No, you're right. It's not quite as they're, they're quite uniform. You can't really make out the faces with the rest of the body. But I think that is a for a lot of the paint jobs is like make sure that the head stands out. That's definitely something that there's no conscious decision to not do that.

But doesn't this style generally gravitas towards that anyway? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. I think so, yeah. I it's an interesting, I think it's a natural thing that just happens by proxy of. So anyway, the night bringer going back to him quickly, he's really clearly got you. You're more drawn, I think, to that view of the model. You've got the head, yeah, you've got the the hair and the arm and, and it's all, it's all like blip, right? Obviously you've got the bright bright yellow at the bottom, which I feel like you have to do legally as AGW in a Lightning paint, but I would have loved that lightning to not be at the bottom only.

The light, the lightning bolts. A little like I get it because you're selling a model and and and if you were to paint it the way I'm suggesting, you basically just wouldn't see the bottom half of that model almost, if you know what I mean. Like there'd be small, small highlights or something. So I get it. But yeah, like this, this uses, I think more stylistically what you would consider our nails box R, but clearly is every metal. So it's like a beautiful hybrid of the two. I think so too. And I, I, I was analysing this for for all this, all this time you were talking and there's no light source.

It has it uses some some some tricks to to make that non metallic work and beautifully I would say, but there's no cohesive light source. It's just it's, yeah, it's, I don't know how to describe it other than on every metal plus it's, it's every metal clearly and you can see it. But at the same time it has this next step of adding I, I wouldn't say a light source but it kind of wants to.

But I don't know if you get what I mean to do this. Because. To show yeah, with no metallic, you have to. But at the same time, yeah, yeah, go on. Well, I was, I, I was talking more like all of the model is painted, right. Every part is fully painted, which is why you have this lack of light source. And as you say, N&M, you have to have a light source because otherwise you can't. It's a reflective. It's pretty hard to have an NM if there's no light source. Well, yes and no, because you can fake that light, that door reflections and then put them wherever you want, which which also it can work too.

It's not like it cannot work some. So in some places the light sources point to One Direction and some places they point to another one. So it's not it's not cohesive in that in the in about in one light source, it works beautifully. It's not that it needs it, but I, I, I still feel strongly and even more now that that's what makes it look at like a Navy metal style, that it doesn't have that cohesive light source. It just makes it work for the figure, if you know what I mean.

Because the light source, a cohesive light source, an absolute light source doesn't give a fuck about the figure. It doesn't give a fuck about the pose. It doesn't give anything. Like it doesn't if something is hidden, is hidden. And if if you do that, then you lose part of the figure. So I I completely understand. But what about, I mean I I get what you're saying with a light source, but isn't that also a very generic term for a lot of different ways of painting? I mean a light source can be. You can stand outside like on a beach on a sunny day and you will be very evenly lit by the sun by it depends what the sun is. On your course, yeah.

Sure, I I get that. But yeah, but even still, I mean, rarely do you have like just a person standing underneath a light bulb. I don't know a lot of different things, right? Of course, of course. But, and that's actually a good example because then if you stick to as an Ithal highlight, as an Ithal light source, the painting will be shit because all, all reflections point upwards, not front. Yeah, yeah. And if they point upwards, then you have half of the figure in shadow and half of the figure in light.

And that's not good for the figure either. So yeah, I think, I think it's a clever way of just using parts of the of a light source that work and the other parts that you don't, that you don't, that it don't work for the figure, you know, that it doesn't play along with it, you just remove it. So that I think that's actually one of the key things that makes it so identifiable as a, as a style in, in this particular case more even. Another interesting part that this discussion has obviously brought up is that GW aren't telling you how to paint.

They're not saying this is sort of a question as well. It's not. It sounded like a statement, like no one's sitting you down with a guidebook saying, look, you have to do light sources like this. You have to do no one's doing that. You're you're just painting how you naturally feel you should. Yeah, this is another really, I mean. If. It's a big topic of could. Be a trade secret. No, no, no, no. It's just, it's a, it's a big topic, I think because arguably Games Workshop is telling everyone how to paint, because most of us come into the hobby with all of the images from from books and from the website and magazines.

I certainly never even really considered painting a different way the first like 5 or 6 years I was into the hobby. And that's kind of what I was saying was like, why I can sometimes be a bit resentful when people think like, yeah, this is, you know, this is grade school is heavy metal painting. And then when you want to get serious, that's when you start to paint a completely different style. And I think, well, OK, but if you actually, I mean, if you can actually paint that well as an heavy metal painter, then you've got a lot of technical skill to build off of. So absolutely try different techniques.

And and again, like that's I, I do agree with the ceiling that there is only so much you can do. But like also, no, you can do anything with it. Because this is the thing. Yeah. No, the the the the way you where you get your inspiration from, I think yeah. I would argue that Kim's workshop is pretty much telling people this is how you paint, especially now with like contrast paints and stuff. It is very no. I mean, I mean in the studio, no one's telling you. Like, Oh no, they are. I mean, yeah, of course that's there is there is a spoken.

Well, what's the word direction? There's yeah, we're we're constantly comparing to older paint jobs. And I think the only argument I wasn't always a fan of was basically someone saying, well, this is a heavy metal style, like this isn't heavy metal painting. And I would sort of obstinately say, well, it's painted by a heavy metal painter and I think it looks really good. So what are we talking about it? Would be interesting to see the the, the reaction to the night bringer internally, if there was any direction or changes, because because I would say right to go to the original R now, no ceiling like this paint job is a very hard paint job to do.

I think for most people, like professionals, OK, fine, you could do it, but I think there's a skill in trying to push this, the style of heavy metal a further whilst also completely keeping it within the, you know, the, the, the style of of it. Because, because I think it's when you start adding the volumetric interpretation that you start complicating things. And that's what this model has in this. Right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, Same with the with the dragon, the new, the the zombie dragon. Yeah, yeah.

Those two are really really cool, and they also have a quite complex paint job in in volumetric. And one of them was also painted by Carlos. Yeah, the black one. Karloff. Karloff. Is that the guy we speak to every time we go? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I like that guy. Yeah. Love, Carlos. Yeah, Very, very good painter. Very good. Fulgrim, Fulgrim. I'm looking at Fulgrim again, right? Oh, you can't zoom in. It's so weird that you can't zoom in on the GW side like anyway.

So here's what I think because you you just mentioned now the the like communication and. Now you you were saying, I wonder how it was received when it was painted. Here's what I think. And I I I haven't talked to anyone on the team like what this like I think that they were looking at the original night bringer that Martin footed painted and they were saying, look, this was kind of game changing when it was made. This was quite different. And I don't I don't know how much Flack he got. You know, I don't I think he just did that and people were amazed by it and they thought, wow, why don't we paint everything like this? Because it looks amazing.

And I think a lot of really great heavy metal paint jobs have been made kind of that way by someone saying, look, I'm going to try to push the boundaries here. And maybe they got a little extra time to do it. Maybe they didn't. I know like you mentioned, the Sangrenor, some of those NMM paint jobs and some of those like really standout characters were painted by Darren Latham and Joe Tomashowski when they were like the heads, heads of the heavy metal team and could essentially do what they wanted, you know, within reason. It was essentially like, I'm going to make, you know, I'm going to make people see how we're the best painters in the world by painting something really, really good. That's not going to happen by doing another, you know, spray paint the Sanguinor in gold and then we're done Like we need to, you know?

Who painted the original Taiko? The Captain Taiko, the gold 1. I think it's the best non metallic in GW ever. That's the one I was. Talking. Oh, sorry, Yeah. So the NMM. Taiko. Yeah, Taiko, the. Gold one I'm. Almost certain that that was Joe Joe Tomachevski. For me that's like peak that he is that inspired me to. The best leaders who've ever worked for that company. It's what inspired me to to learn non medallic. Yeah, yeah. It's outstanding. It could still be now.

Though it's probably probably, I suppose it's age it is. Still good now. It is age, but it it's still good. It's very good. Throw that up in the erections for me. It's interesting though, because like I look at full grim and it's not the same level as I actually look at the old night bringer and you see that this is as close to this has really strong directional like light. If you look at his cloak at the bottom, the old one, it's it's there's almost nothing on it.

He's just edged highlight a tiny bit and done some graze right on the and and everything else above where he wants you to look is painted quote UN quote properly right. So that was really strongly removed from this hole. Let's paint everything. And I think if I could improve the new night one, I'd do an airbrush of some color, purple or something, I don't know, at the bottom, like all over it and just just bring all of that colour down. But I imagine that he'd probably get told off for doing that or something. I, I, I would, I don't think so, because then you would, you would have some a lot more attention to that bottom, which is not great in, in, you know, it's just how it fades. And then I don't think that you want to have mentioned that. I think that purple, the purple that looks amazing. Yeah, ignore the colour.

I should have said made it darker. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. I agree with that, yeah. Yeah, just just something to bring to to remove the the the bright yellows and and the green even works a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, like, I don't, I don't like that. But yeah, that's that's, I understand why it's there, but it's interesting watching and seeing the the old one having that same thing like but. It's funny because yeah, yeah. Go on. Sorry. I'll go for a. Minute yeah, it's funny because I was taking full grim and the style is really different.

It's a lot more what I what I understand about heavy metal There's yeah, it's it's a pure heavy metal style for what I understand. It's beautifully painted. I will say yeah, it's but but yeah, and the purples I think of fucking quali and the tightness. But yeah, exactly. It's not the night bringer because I didn't think it was that far away from all the other. But now I realize it's it's it's much more heavily MOT MOT. It's such a weird way to, I call it modern this. That seems condescending in a way, or maybe not kind of prove it wrong because it's not modern.

Like, people have been doing art that way. But I guess in the last like, 10 years in miniature painting, that's become more prevalent. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. This I do think it I think it's good though to because you've just like highlighted 2 really big important 40K characters as having quite exceptional paint jobs. That's the way it should be, I think if if like the what are now's favorite miniatures, the new Sanguinary Guard, if those paint jobs happen to be the best paint jobs of all time. That would be kind of weird.

I feel. I would almost feel like that was a waste of time. Not really. But it's like, you know, this is kind of doing the the practical thing again, where, yeah, we've got a big team of people painting all the Emperor's Children's stuff. We want to get it as interesting and good looking as possible. But then Anya can go off and paint full grim as its own thing and make it make it good for you know what it is. And as long as it fits into the other stuff relatively well, it can be pretty unique. I think that's that's kind of where it should be. That's a good, good combination. And I do think I'd like, it's interesting to think now I know you're not going to join the every medals team, but it would be really interesting for someone like yourself to start working there, get something like a massive character and really like really push that limit of how different can it be before it sort of breaks, before it doesn't work with everything else Because there's something to be said for just quality is quality. Wouldn't you be scared right now of them clipping your wings? I'm very passionate about

painting and I think it's one of the only places where I would die on the hill. That's good. Got to have, got to have your thing, I mean. You'd get fired basically because you'd be like. Nah, I would probably, yeah. Yeah, they'd be like, no, I know you need to paint in this style. You haven't delivered in six months. You'd be like, no, I'm this is what I'm delivering. This is that's finished. They're like, right. But we're not going out with that. That's the thing though and I would show up with a finished program after like 12 hours. Well. I don't think so, no the detail, right? Well, if you take then you'll.

Start. I'm pretty sure that if I'm, if I want to to paint something like that and I, I will because I have a Commission for something like that, I'll take easily 2-3 weeks being kind probably a month, yeah. Yeah, I spent, I think I spent two months, just about two months on Hangron. So the timings I usually, I, I thought that was, I mean pretty generous actually, but that's the kind of time frame you're looking at for the really big crazy models. I wouldn't expect full room to have been much less than that, actually.

A lot of what would be hard would be not painting for a whole day and just reporting that you're painting and then panic painting when you've got one week before the deadline. Because totally. Yeah, don't get me wrong, you'd probably have catch UPS every week or yeah, it'd be interesting. Catch UPS every week and also if you are actually in an office, I think you're you're sort of in the mind frame of what kind of work you're doing. Yeah, yeah, I assume you're all working at home. Not only during during the lockdown, yeah, that was. I didn't have a lot of days like that though.

It was it was 2 solid months of anger on just me in a dark room blasting death metal. Has to get in the role. Ousted in pig's blood. Yeah, it's great. It's really good actually. Off topic, we'll go back until quickly. The combat patrol for Blood Angels is awful. Is it? Well, it is because there's, there's some. That's why it's awful. It's full of Blood Angels men. It's just no, it's it's it's it's, it's what you get there. You get 6 sanguina guard and 10 marines like.

That's it. And that's the only oh, you get a captain as well. Yeah, the captain is the only good thing. Yeah, you got a captain? He just looks like everyone else so. Right, yeah, I feel sadness about that. I've been going through all the paint jobs though, and I, I, it's an interesting thing here. I go and look back at the paint jobs from around 2010 and the styles are so different in a really weird right? Yes, with a few, with a few exceptions, there's a couple of armies and and projects from that time that are incredible that are some of the best metal works. That's what I was going to.

So like even the Rafe Lord, OK, you look at that now and that wouldn't get painted that way. Now, I don't know if you've noticed the Rafe Lord, but he has. He has free hand on him, the Rafe Lord. Oh, what were you saying that that some are you saying that paint jobs from 2010 are generally like more impressive? Some of them, some no, not all of them. Some of them are really good. Oh, yeah, no, many of them are really good. Yeah, the free hand on the is exciting is great. Yeah, I agree. The free hand is on the, the, the cloak on the head and on the leg, right? And I'm like, it's fucking cool.

And I look at like and it goes all the way up the leg and I don't like that model at all. As you know, we've we've we've gone down that road. But but when I see that paint job, I'm like, oof. And I find it and I look even the the Ravager from dark elder, the vehicle, right? I'm like, yeah, that's a good paint job. And and. It's a really good, that whole range is really good and that was done in 2009. Yeah, right. That has not like that. So my point here is it's it's I actually don't fully have one, but it's the G it seems like the heavy metal have gotten very effective at doing a good base level paint job across a huge range. And then you have your characters that are really high quality and and the somehow the level has improved, but dropped. It's I can't because why were you spending so much time on a fucking Ravager and a Rafe Lord?

They wouldn't get the same. And I look at the sanguine garden, the new Blood Angels and some of the like, and I'm like, that must have been an afterthought for them to paint like that. Whereas it seems like back like they were like, right, just get it out because we don't give a shit. The models are shit. We're just going to get it out like. I mean to to whomever painted the Sanguinary Guard, you did a great job. But they, I, I, I think if we spoke to the Sanguinar guard painter, he's not going to say that was my best work. He's going to say. No, no. I I did contrast paints on it.

It's really good for what it is because I did it in a week and it's pretty. Cool. No, I hear what you're saying. That's that base level is what I'm saying. That's that base level on the Sanguinary Guard. You can put it in a magazine, you can put it on there and it looks OK. But I mean, do you think that that Wraith Lord is somehow like better painted than the Sanguinary Guard? Because I think the the red on that Wraith Lord is probably not as well rendered. Well, that's exactly, that's almost case in point then to my point. Yeah. Like like it's, it's kind of backing up the fact that it seems like they were given more time to do they were best. I think it seemed probably a good way to describe it. This is not true necessarily, but they were given more free rein.

They could do what the fuck they want. Possibly. I know that they were given almost no time at all, like when I was working there. We were seen as quite spoiled with time because we had like, I mean like 3 days for a Space Marine. And the people that have worked on the team before who are now are all miniature designers. They were like, well, you know, we used to do a Space Marine in one day or two in a day or something like that. And you what? It's madness that that that this way.

Like, yeah. Yeah. And so, so that raised Lord I, I've no idea, but I would guess that that was painted in like, you know, three days or something. Four days, at one point they had like a what's the word template for timing. So, you know, an infantry model was like a day no matter which infantry model. And now they're quite a lot more detailed, some of them. So anyway, what we're talking about, yeah, no, the freedom. I think potentially there's been some projects where more attention was given to more certain models or even certain parts of models.

The way I thought is kind of interesting because you thought the freehand looked really cool, but you're not super concerned with whether the red is like really well rendered with the your highlights or whatever. Maybe that's a good thing though. That's like putting. The the Ray Floyd, when you see it in real life, is it the red is hand painted? That just that cracks me up. Like it's, it's, it's I don't think it's badly painted. Actually. The, the red and the overall like he's edge highlight everything that that blended all the highlights and stuff. I, I don't know, like, I don't know if we need to, if we like, yeah, OK, I, I fuck it.

I don't know what I was trying to say there. But to sum up, basically, we didn't cover anything on our now side of painting. Interestingly, we just focused on TW. So we can go back to the topic another time. But the whole thing was box arts versus GW, and we haven't spoken about, or maybe we did by proxy, but we mostly spoke about GW and their style. And well, what, what, what was the point of the versus like because. It was I, I think we, I wanted a generic thing that led wherever we went was where it would. Go, yeah, I thought we got to some good conclusions there. But we we also agree that there's no actual point to saying that 1 is better than the other.

I definitely don't think so. I don't think you do either. And it wasn't a competition because I didn't. Say we had diplomatic and I mean, but there are definitely painters that suck and we can get into that at another point. So we have the Q&A, which it won't be too long, but they can often lead into good wholesome conversations. In fairness, I I haven't read our Q as because I I like to I see the questions and then I blank my mind because I want it to be visceral, to be fresh, to be new When I read the question live on air, which isn't live. Then we have Grotbusters, which is obviously a fan favorite. Everyone's asking for that so we can get there later with John DW hype things I hate.

Let's just get that out of the way. OK, so, so I've got two things I hate. I might save the next one in case I don't have something that I hate net week. But the things I hate are strawberries that have a white centre, so they're not soft. OK I fucking hate that and it really annoys me. I've gotten I've gotten really good at when you so do you remove the green part? Twist. Yeah, you twist and pull. Exactly, and you can get the white out with it. But not when it's a shit strawberry Martin and the whole fucking thing is white.

That's what I hate. OK, it's. Like a. Flavourless bowl of shit. Yeah. What's the second one? Second, what we can say to next week. It's a good, it's a good healthy attitude to life when that's the thing you hate, though, like your one thing that you hate, you can't even. Think of us if you guys have something you want to what was the segment called Things I hate. I can do a Jingle for each of us if you want. And then when when you have I need to do a jiggle. Now that we've got the jingles back. So we are now and I now are both paying to boost. Mine just avoided the subject so he didn't have to pay the €5 a month.

But now we've got our jingles back so we can start adding more. Now what, what, what I will say about Things I hate is I'm eating now probably 2 kilos of yogurt a day and about a kilo of strawberries a day. So I I do think I'm I'm I'm I'm getting close to the point where I need to cut back slightly. Maybe, maybe 1K ago. The trouble is are now they taste so fucking good and and and what? Let me ask you, let me ask you a quick what? What type of yogurt?

Is it fat free? It's 10% fat. Right, because I eat 0% fat yogurt that's. Probably why you don't eat too cruel because it's. I I don't think I get that amount but I eat like a large amount but it is 0 fat so it's not a lot of calories and it still tastes really. Good, I I thought that. Any amount of strawberries. But so fat is good for you, they say. So I was like, yeah, fuck it, I'll eat 10% fat. Fat is good for you, they say.

That's. What I've heard. This is. Why the Montes are so good with you? Because of that attitude. This is I'm really, and we're going to Germany as well. It's going to be glorious. Well, when was it the last time? We, anyway? I won't, I won't spend too long here, but I'm eating. I was before I got into the strawberries, eating eight eggs a day with two pieces of toast. Right. We, I think we covered that, didn't we? And I, I, I, Nah, well, I, I learned about omelets because basically for the last year now I've been eating like 8 eggs. So 4 fried and four scrambled, OK, with two pieces of toast every day.

And that was just my dinner because I couldn't eat a kilo of fish like I was doing like, not quite a kilo like. That's with those amounts dude. Like a. Lot of everything. I mean, you should eat like have some eggs, but eight eggs sounds like quite a lot of fat. And maybe totally, totally. Just one of one of the best episodes in our entire life was about a 5 kilos wheel of cheese. Well, that you bought, right? So. So yeah, I know your, I know your style, but still, it just amazes me that there's no, no middle point.

It's not my choice. The body wants what the body wants right And where, where. So anyway, the point here is that I was only eating eggs right? And it was delicious. Like I I couldn't look forward to the eggs more. I would, I would for like 2 hours before I'd eat, I'd, I'd be excited at the thought of eating these eggs. OK. And slowly these strawberries have crept in. They've, they've, they're fucking, They started off with just a little bit of strawberry and then they just a little bit more. And then I found these pots of yogurt and then it fucking and that.

And now we're at this point where I might have a problem. But right, it's really important to remember strawberries are seasonal. So I don't have long so now I'm fucking struggling because to find good strawberries is hard right now I'm I'm really having to scrape the barrel to try and find these strawberries. And whenever you find a good batch it's very exciting. So this morning I I actually hit gold and I bought 8 packs of strawberries. So 4 kilos of strawberries. Because so today, so. Yeah, no, 4-4 days of strawberries, but I actually, I learned that the, the, the, the closer to being off, They are just, there's a cusp. It's like an avocado.

You know, you get an avocado, it's either bruised as fuck or it's rock as shit, right? These strawberries are similar. You want to just squeeze them a little bit, just get them like get their juices flowing and then eat them in like 8 to 10 hours. And they're like, oh fuck, they're like juicy and sweet, right? But not the shit ones, not the strawberries that are white everywhere. They're just to be honest, I throw the pack away if they're like that because they're not worth eating. It's it's like going to a brothel and just sleeping in the bed. You know, you don't want to do it.

It's just like it's not worth it. I'd rather I'd rather just not go and that's why I'll just throw the pack away. 4499 no waste of money. So shall we go into a growth Busters? Please, I, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking now you've got the, you've got the end, the, the, what's it called? Submissions from our many listeners. So we, we, they. Can they can't fake any like correct answers the way me and are now can. So we should start with ours and say have you got any any answers to these or not? I think I have two.

Not bad. I also think I have two. It's a tie. OK, the first one. LR. Oh wait, do we have a grot Buster? We don't have a grot. Buster's fucking Jingle. We do. No, we don't have a Jingle. What? We don't have a Jingle. I didn't do a Jingle yet. I didn't know. I didn't know why now would get there in. Time last. Week, this whole endeavour is ruined. This is already our best segment and there's no Jingle. Well, we've got guests quest. Of course it's time for guests quest. Interesting.

That's a really. I must have manually done that anyway, so LR. 100 jingles, but none for it's too. New. I'll do it next week. Where's the fruit going in such a hurry? OK. What do you think are now? That I don't know. I, I don't. Seriously. I got that. OK. I guess is Lehman Ross. It's correct. Yeah. Lemon, Lemon. Rush, you that lemon rush? Yeah, lemon rush. Is that right, Lemon? Rush Yeah, yeah. Fucking hell, Now you gotta lemon rush Where's he going in such a hurry that bloody fruit and I nearly said lemon now this one I fucked up when I told you.

Oh wait, sorry for the new listeners. Maybe we've got one new listener or something Grotbusters is basic. What I will give I will give a cryptic clue and and the initials of a character from the warhammer any system, but I only know 40K so more or less you can pretty much bank there's 40K. If it's not, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you. And the classic example was what was it? A beehive that's evil or something? A mean beehive you. Said that the the, the, the what was it? A yeah, Like the mayor of that hive is really evil.

He's a hive tyrant. And you also said age. HT so that wasn't of course HT another. Example would be. GS, he's bloody nick my jeans. OK there. What? What's that? What's the What's the letter? GS he's he's stolen my jeans. Where's he going with my jeans? Jeans dealer. I was going to say we're going to have a problem if I now doesn't get this one. So that that's the that's that is grotbusters. OK, now there's obviously a natural shelf life.

I guess when we finish 40K we can move on to other things in the world. But for now we're we're firmly in there. So you then you had the the second one now did you guys? I'll I'll give you the clue again. It's he's not a good one. He's not good. That old guy. We, we, I think we both got that. Unfortunately, you did. You did ruin it. Last slightly. Yeah, slightly. Yeah. Thank you. It's bad. Well. It's a badon, no? Yeah, it's a badon. This is not a good one. He's a badon. It's like a saying you would say. Anyway, he's a badon. You don't want to go near him. He's a badon. OK, so that's one all.

Oh no, it's 21. So everything relies on this. LR is they're going to war. They're like they're going to that place to to conquer that place. They're going to that land to take it over something like that land. Raider. Yeah, that's yeah, Land Raider. So wait, Martin, you've got all of them. Yeah, apparently. But yeah, I, I, I feel like the, the prompt for the last one was something like they're off to war. And I thought, how could that be Land Raider?

No, they're shipped somewhere, you said. They're shipping off to war, whatever. Like, how's that? Land they're they're landing the land they're. Raiding the land? Yeah. No, it's good, it's good. I got a little bit stuck on the last one because there's only so many LRS on the website. It was Lehman, Ross, Land Raider or Luminous Realm Lords. It's luminous. It's a hard one. That's a hard sell. So. Arnold, did you? So what one did you not get the first one? The first one. Yeah, Lemon rust, OK, and congratulations to well, I'll also give the answers from your brother are now got them all right.

So congratulations, he is obviously got them all right and nailed it. Nailed it. And he's given lemon rust. We got that right. He interestingly thought Angron for #2 because he's a bad, I guess he's evil, right? Something like that. And his last answer wasn't the best. It was fuck knows. So that's that is wrong. Still enjoy the answers and this week's OK. I have to really struggle to not give you the fucking name because I've had so this is RG is the initials OK?

RG Yeah, just just just reboot that and then give it to them. OK? Just turn it on and off. Way too easy. Don't spoil it. So I don't know how hard to go. OK, the next one is B, just the letter B OK. And it's. Yeah, I've, I've locked it, but there's just crap all over it. OK, hold on. I've got to pause. It's a door or you 2 can talk, but I'll pause. OK, doors back. Right.

So we've got #2 which is I locked it, but it's got crap all over it. OK, locked. Locked the door. I locked. I locked the, I locked the thing. Fine. Fine. Yeah. And then #3 is, is, is D now? Hold on. One SEC. One SEC, just hold on. What's the fucking clue here? I can't even work out what does that mean?

Was that the one I wanted to do or was it? Did I get rid of the word? Hold on, it's not Dead Space. Can you remember what it was? Probably not, right. No. OK, Well, I went, I went, I went to the I went to the dentist and I was, I was proper like dreading it. And and then at the end it was it. I didn't even need to go, was all. Yeah, the need to go for it in the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the clue. That's Dean.

OK, OK. So was it? Yeah, I just, I went, went to the dentist and I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, really, really dreading it. And then, yeah, I didn't need to go in the end. Oh no, I know, I know. And that's it. That is Grot Busters Week 2. Are we doing accumulation of scores or do you just want to do you win the week? That's a tough one. We could do a whole tournament, but I also do think we should award incredible prizes just but like once every four months.

It would be brilliant, wouldn't it? And we could even do like a big promotion on YouTube for it because we're great at that, right? So we could just we could just call it there and we got through the thing of hate. But that will come back next week with I mean with that oh, Q&A, holy crap, the most important part of the whole show where we gave back to the community that supports us, those four people, right. So the first Q&A is from Exifica E Tanabanaran, looks is his name and he is asking is this from this year or from years ago?

This is just years OK for those who have attended or hosted a master's class or a painting shop lesson. Anyway, what is what is one way to get the most out of those classes? And what are common pitfalls you see in common for your students? Oh sure, this is a good one. And I think it might be a a long one in case you want to in case you want to save it and start with it next episode.

Could that? No. That'll be the meat of it next week then. Yeah, that's a good idea. Because because if you say it's A, it's a beefy one. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. OK. Albert asked. Have you bought your flight for GW yet? GD So thanks for that, Albert. Yeah. OK, blah blah blah. Hold. Right? Andy asked. What level? Also, what level of control with positioning do you need to be able to get the most out of class? Oh that's the same fucking thing? Fine, have you ever? I will probably reread these. Nah and Jamie, have you ever thought about 3D printing and painting football figures and making a custom subbutio set?

Well so do you guys from foreign countries know what subbutio is to what subbutio? Subbutio. Fair enough. Have you heard of the game football, basically soccer guys. Yeah, basically Subuter is in the UK. You you get 11 men. They're about the size of your, let's say an inch tall. I was going to say thumb, by the way, not my Pekka. And they come on little tiny bases with an Oval floor.

And on the top there's a player right? And then you get a tiny ball and they get the rules of the game are you have the full pitch, there's 12:00, you got a goalie, 11 players. And you, you flick the ball. And if you hit your own player, you get to flick again. Otherwise the opposition gets to flick right. And you're, you're basically flicking your men around the the pitch. And I've never thought to 3D print. I'm assuming you mean Andy like print elder basically on on these and have an elder sabuto team but I haven't played sabuto since I was like 7-8 or nine.

We used to play a lot with my brother. It's a fun game but not when your brother's just like cheating and then you're getting dicked on and then he's like no you can. Anyway I haven't 3D printed anything in years. I've got the printer there but the bloody pigeons moved in on top of it so I've had to kill 4 pigeons now. It's insane, right? And they're vermin, so it's not. Really. You haven't killed some. People, I would never kill animals and I definitely don't go hunting and I also definitely don't eat meat. So I definitely didn't kill them and I definitely, yeah. So you take and you read into that what you want. But I haven't.

You have to say 1 of this is true, but I don't know. Like I, I'm slightly annoyed that I haven't printed anything. I feel like I should, but we don't need to go into that. OK, cool. So we've got to meet over the next week. Any more questions to ask? I don't know about Siberio. Let me know what you do, Andy, or if you've done anything. Like it's a weird thing for you to think up if you're not 3D printing your own stuff for Siberio, if you know what I mean. There's got, there's got to be some story behind that. Oh, you mean the suggestion? Yeah, it'd be like me asking, oh, like, have you ever gone to the doctors or not gone to the doctors for that STI you've got? You'd be like, why would you ask that unless you're thinking of not going to the doctors and you've got an STI you, you know, And that's what I feel that should be you. I'm looking forward to doing Rebel Boom one day. I've got to be honest with you.

In season 6 or 7 we can maybe. I'm tempted to watch the director's cut now. Another six or seven hours of that. I I watched both directors cut without knowing that they were and I think it's good. There's there is. I still want to talk about that. Yeah. Well, and the. Other projects I share the photo I have. Now nearly based all or 60 guardians. That's incredible. We're getting there, We're getting there. It's fun. It's fun. I actually.

Literally sat down and moved seconds. How do you base your guardians? What's the process? 1999 style, so nice sand and then snake bite leather and then bleach bone and then a bit of white with bleach bone dry brushed and then a tiny bit of grass. Not too much because I'm not you know, I'm not a wimp, but in my opinion, that's by by far the best basic style and I'll now it's wrong always. Oh interesting, you guys base in Ballot Brown now on every metal. No, I beat your.

No. Yeah, yeah, it's the one. You mean it's Morn Fang Brown? Yeah, yeah, the the whole. Yeah. The scheme used to be BBB which is beastial brown, bubonic brown bleached bone and it's now Mourn Fang Brown Zammizi Desert and you shaped the bone, I guess. Shanti Bone. What about? That there's also, there's also been more of a like structured shift for certain armies to other shift.

I mean, they've just done different basin schemes is what I mean. So like the Kill Team? Is black right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but and Kill team also now like with the recent tomb world box, they did tomb world bases which was cool. It's also like certain armies just have their own bases, like the what's called the the Silva Nets have greenish bases and there's like death bases for some of the death armies and the Tao have their own basing scheme. I don't. I don't dislike that. So this is completely shouldn't we do a task masters between us 3? I'm up for it if you but but not if I'm if I'm alone. If I'm alone, I'll freaking kill you both. So mine, what task masters is, is we set a task and we we basically we agree it now and then next week we deliver and we share the photos in the group and it creates a beautiful community because the the listeners also do the task masters if they feel so

inclined. Like I think it should be monthly though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. But it's the 4th of September, so it's not it's a nice time to start, start of the month to to do. A A yeah, yeah. December not being quite busy GD. No, but you can. It's only an hour or two that you're meant to spend on it. You're not meant to spend the evenings on it, right? Talking about a hobby project that I'm spending an hour or two on. No, it's it's literally we set the thing now. Like create a base using just a base and it has to have a dead body on it or it.

It has that. That's all it is. It's it's not meant to be. And the reason why I'm asking is I I actually sat down yesterday to do the bass and that's the first time I've sat down on the painting desk in a long time. I would bring it back, but maybe a bit for on the other line. Let's build up the community first, Scott. You right, boys? Thank you very much for joining. Any suggestions and honest feedback from the listeners? I'll probably ask again in episode reaction, but the more feedback we get, the more we enjoy being near you.

Yes, secretively. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I nearly hung up again. Cheers, guys. Cheers, listeners. I'll see you next week. See you. Mate. So enthusiastic.