Post Golden Demon 2025 Thoughts

>> I'm okay. I think Ara is worse off. >> Yeah, I got uh a bug from someone somewhere. >> Yeah, boy. >> That should not be named except Jamie probably. >> I'll be honest. >> Most likely. >> I think I did amazingly well. Um, like I was fucking dying. Okay. And I still drove you there. And I didn't complain because I couldn't. I felt too ill to complain. I just sat there driving. >> I'm not complaining though. I'm just reporting. >> I didn't. Yeah. In fairness, also to counter your counter, I didn't say you were complaining.

>> Oh, yeah. [laughter] We asked you how you're doing and you just answered that question. But Jamie was uh quite stoic about his illness all weekend and I several times felt bad that I forgot to ask you how are you? Like I would have asked I I >> no during the weekend. I mean yeah I was like drowning in in nervous sweat but >> yeah I didn't I didn't >> do you know what I mean? >> No it's it's fine man. It's important to check up on on on you on your guys and we were living together and you were like driving us every day and >> driving putting our clothes on.

>> Yeah. >> Bathing you I guess with a sponge. >> Yeah. Um, so we are we we are mini matters for all you new listeners that are coming in off the back of Martin's success. Um, what the fuck are we? We are just a miniature room painting podcast. We're basically not that. >> Like I painting podcast. At least that's what it says on the logo and we do talk about miniature painting. >> If we ever been if we've ever been a miniature painting podcast, it is now. >> Correct. >> I see. I see. Okay. Yeah. I do. I can see that. I can see that. I wanted to quickly talk about Pokemon. So, [laughter] >> of course, you will.

>> No, no, no. But, but the what what I've learned is um from listening. So, we heard about Gooey Gub or whatever the other YouTube channel, [laughter] >> right? So, I I didn't I've not heard of this. Um and my Scotsman came up to me. Yeah, get just for context is get good. >> Get good podcast/isord. Uh >> I see get good. >> Yeah, >> get good from >> it's get get good get good.

>> Are they like India or something? Are >> they get good? >> No, it's get good. It's get good. Like they'll help you to get good. >> But it's git. It's get good. >> Yes, it's good. >> Yeah, that's what it's like. Why is it [laughter] Indian? I find that weird. >> There's nothing Indian about it. You know the band biscuit. You understand that biscuit isn't spelled like that, but it's just the word. >> It's like it's like great. It's like G and it's a play on words. >> Yeah, exactly. Or like M and then the the number eight and >> that's very creative and I'm I think that's a brilliant name. Um, >> but for anyone who's much more like um like linguistically conservative, our podcast is just called Mini Matters because we talk about things to do with minis and things that it's a f it's literally a fantastic pun and >> no explanation needed. It is what it is.

>> Okay. I was going to credit who the creator. Um, [snorts] but it's fine. >> Who is the creator? Is that Lo? >> No, it was L. The guy who just won a Golden Demon. I think he won bronze in diarama even though it was a single model. Fair play to him though. >> Um with >> Okay, >> El John. Yeah, exactly. So, he came up with the name and it is a it is a good pun in my opinion. >> But what the fuck were we talking about? So, what is Mini Man's? Yes. I I get good, right? >> Um he came up to me and he was wearing the t-shirt. I was like, "What's that t-shirt? It looks pretty good." Uh, and uh, it turns out they um, of course we're not rivals because no one can rival us because you're only you're only rivals if you're similar, right? If you're on the same level, you're both going for gold. You're both going blah blah blah. We're not in their league.

No, we're a Mickey Mouse podcast basically. So, uh, we we firmly not uh, their rivals, but we are a podcast. Well, you say that, but like I'm I'm finding a hard time keeping track of how many golden demons their lot won this year and I'm pretty sure we're at one. >> So, >> we're at one and they're >> Well, it depends on if you count Albert. I guess they do count Albert. Maybe I think maybe Albert is like firmly in their camp and he won a slayer resort. So, >> but Albert doesn't Why would Albert know about get good? I mean, he did tell he did link about it quickly, but he's not he's not >> he's not in it, though, is he? He's just he knows of it.

>> Well, we I mean we are in the Discord. I am as well in the Discord. But >> you're in the Discord, are now? >> Yeah, of course. >> Oh, the betrayal. [laughter] >> And Albert's in it. >> Yeah, apparently. >> And he didn't tell me. No one told me. No one thought of Albert wasn't at any point like, "Look, mate. Look, [clears throat] sits me down. I've just got something to tell you." And you're like, "Okay, what is it?" He goes, "Look, it's just [snorts] I mean, get good. Get up. Oh, Discord. That's You're not in it, Martin though, are you?

>> Oh, no. >> Is he on now? >> I am. No, he Okay, good. >> I think Virtual Spud, right? >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> Virtual Spud, Martin. No, not you. Get out. [laughter] Fuck. >> Yeah. Sweet. Cheers, mate. >> That's good. So, you and Albert in there. Fuck me. Uh, well, in that by proxy, Albert's also in ours. Anyway, it's not a pissing competition. I'm not jealous. I I'll be honest. They're where I want to be. All right. That's where I bet they get stuff sent to them for free. I bet they're getting paints. Um >> I bet they get like BMWs.

>> Jesus, that was a good podcast. So, uh yes, we are mini matters and we're not um we're not small time and we don't have five listeners and all of our listeners aren't basically doing their GCSEs, which is the the lowest form of higher educa. No, in fact, it's the compulsory education here. So it's the lowest form of compulsory education which is >> I have never and look I've never understood what the British school system mean like these words for thing when people are like I'm in primary school I'm the I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say.

>> All right. It's it's it's it's like you know you get those like scallags on the street who try and rob you with their hats on like they got hoodies or something. They'll they'll be they GCSE is like 14 to or 15 to 16 education. It's two years of education. It's the It's the It's the highest form of compulsory education. >> GC. What? >> GCSE. I don't know what it stands for. It's probably not. I'm probably showing my age here. Anyway, Golden Demon. Um, >> how was how was it? [clears throat] >> It's pretty good. >> I Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.

>> No, no, no. You please go. Oh, I I'll jump in that over o overall overall to to just for starters, aside from all the minutia of who won what, I really thought this weekend was uh one of the better ever Golden Demon Weekend. >> Is that because it's the first time spending it with us? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Straight up. >> Was a good weekend. We did We did start off Three Best Friends Forever are now myself and Albert many moons ago. Where did we first go? 4 years, 3 years >> in the Nottingham one. No.

>> So 2020 >> 22 I think it was. >> Okay. 22. I didn't know. I just let you say it. Um Okay. Yeah. So we have actually not that long. Wow. That's quite >> So the first time you guys went together, Albert won the Slayer Sword. Damn. >> No, that was >> No, not Nottingham. He won gold. Yeah. >> Oh, no. Sorry. What am I saying? That was Chris Clayton. Yeah. Close though. Right on. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I agree. It was a very good weekend. I think um having done so many events by myself like Golden Demon I did for 3 years, one year with the wife and the thing and then two years by myself. It is a lot lot better when you go with people.

But for all those people listening who go by themselves, keep keep doing that until you eventually just talk to enough people that you can to be honest Albert did all this. Albert brought in our now or at least knew our now and then we were friends and Albert brought you in M. Then you brought Dian and then um are now and you or you and anyway, fuck it. Um my um I was I was I was worried actually during the show before the awards ceremony and I always said I'll I'll reserve judgment for the judging of this year's uh show uh until the award you know the pl the final placements are out and um they had a bad rep from last year's Golden Demon in my mind right uh and then the results came out and I have to I feel a lot less uh not anger, I was never angry, but a lot less um fear with the final results, if that makes sense, than I did that how I thought it would be.

>> Um >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I think when we were in the in the cabinets, because we went on Sunday, was it? >> Yeah, >> that we we did the full Yeah. the the full round. Uh it's true that when we were looking at them there was a lot of inconsistencies in in >> the pins in not in between the higherups but yeah between pins like between finalist and notable and commended there were a lot of you know things that we could not explain but then it's true that when the that inside the finalists they were pretty solid >> most of it except a couple of them >> which is normal I think as in I think opinions mean that you will always get some uh level of variable variation in in your opinions and theirs. I I I see I it doesn't make it like great for the people who really believe they should

have won or or or objectively objective which you can't be right. Um >> never objective but it's there is certainly I think an atmosphere with some categories and some awards that you really really don't know what's going on. Um I think I've never had a year where I agree with every one of the choices. Um, >> have you ever had a year where you've you've >> the ones that you didn't quite agree with, you were like, "Oh, it's close." I would have gone this way. Normally, in my mind, it's quite polarized.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's can't understand it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I think last year there were a few where I thought like, "Wow, this makes no sense to me." But but usually it's more like, "Yeah, this is uh these three were really good. I would have gone maybe swapped or maybe something didn't win that shouldn't and whatever. But it's it's usually it's like pretty close. And whatever it is, I tend to feel like I kind of get what the judges are doing. Uh yeah, last year was a little weird. Um this year I feel like it's kind of easy for me to be like really okay with all the judging this year just because I won gold. But >> that is true.

>> It's so it's it's obviously it t like um colors that a little bit. But I do I do feel there were some things this year that really bugged me. >> You do have Stern, your best mate, not placing, right? So you do you do have um what's the word? Like >> even with you winning gold, you've still got that Yeah. perspect perspective of it being weird like >> and I thought I thought like I I would have wanted Stan to get an award. I think I I think there were maybe uh five maybe six models that I think could have should have placed in that category. Uh I would have preferred to be in the top three.

>> Yeah, really really hard category. Um I'm not surprised at all that Matt and Andy and Yoan did, but I would have preferred Stan to get something pro. It's probably just a massive bias because he's my friend, but I really really did think that his model was amazing and he did he did such a good job of it and I think it really stood out in the cabinets. And then our now that's a whole different thing because Arn Now should have been a finalist and he and you didn't get a pin at all. That's bullshit. It was quite quick one actually. It was just my my uh my my very brief and spontaneous anger that he uh didn't that he didn't get a finalist spin. There were some insane pieces in that category. So, uh I would have wanted our now to get a finalist pin and uh for pretty much the three that won to win. Uh yeah, whatever.

>> And so this is quite a good place to go negative. I'll just quickly do a shit sandwich. Um I think that Roman learned a lot from like credit credit to him and the team if they were supporting it, but the the judging was a lot better and I think he learned a lot from last year. It's a shame that we had last year, but you can't get better unless you and this is the new format, right? Two people from GD um GW who aren't painters, so you've got this guest judge. Roman is finished now, so someone else will come in and do America and then UK and blah blah blah, right? Um so that's the good.

And then the shit part is I'm not sure how I feel about the new system of pins because it's basically now an open competition in a way because it means you're you are literally now competing against yourself unless you're going for the top three. So last year I got you know silver pin, next year I want to get a gold pin for example. >> Uh I don't fully know how I feel about that. It's not a full shit sandwich. Um I mean one argument would be it makes no difference so why care is that it really makes no difference right and >> at the end we still go for the higher prices right so I don't think it matters much >> I don't but yeah I get what you're saying I um so your piece are now thoughts frustrations >> uh it's difficult to to say Sorry.

Um I don't I don't feel anger or you know I think I'm more mostly sad probably because I don't know what what happens like there's a few options right for for me to not get a a pin at at all. one option is that they have something personal against me which I don't think but who knows um maybe the last yeah a policy of just no are now by >> no no no I don't think so >> uh maybe the post I did last year which was bitching a little bit about the judging or I don't know I to be fair I don't think it's this one um another one can be that they really didn't like it, which is possible like it can be. I think not give an anything at all. It's a little bit

harsh, but well, whatever. Um, and then what else? May that it could be that it was disqualified for something. Um, but obviously I can I cannot know. We we don't know either about the Green Knight, right? Because that only got a silver. But that was an amazing piece for For anybody who doesn't know, I think I took photos of it and I'm going to upload them to the Warhammer. blog so you can see the pictures. But you probably have seen the pictures actually. Did he post it online? >> Yeah, >> probably did, right? So most people listening will probably So I can't see why that would have been disqualified. I mean, people were talking about recast and blah blah blah.

>> Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think that either. To be fair, I think I I probably think that they don't they didn't like it. Uh >> but then that gets into more confusing realms, doesn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what makes me more worried because what what is it that they dislike? It's not It's not that they that they don't don't like it, is that they actually dislike it because then for not giving >> Yeah. It's a statement, >> you know. Yeah. cuz it's really discarded. It's not given a less award than something else. It's like no, we don't even want this to be in the competition.

>> I'll just throw some salt on on that as well, right? Just an open wound. Um >> Mhm. >> I took some there were there were like two or three in the same category models that were almost basecoated colors, right? So it was there was no highlighting, there was no and they got bronze pins. Um, yeah. >> Now, I don't know if if if if that should factor in, like maybe you just don't look at other pieces. And they looked at that piece and they were like that guy needs encouragement. Let's give him, you know, maybe he's like borderline something and they're like we could just give it him or they just judge it on on an individual case and they like there's no outside sources. So like Albert's piece doesn't impact, you know, what another thing is in that category. But it does add confusion even if you don't look at other pieces because even if >> even if you don't like your piece, it's it it objectively it can't be worse than some of the other things that got pins that were literally shit. Um so that's interesting. So I guess I know you

hadn't finished, but I want to move to where does it leave you in um Golden Demon, your feelings towards it and stuff. Uh, it's I guess a weird place because now I don't care about Golden Demon. I I really I have hype to be fair. I I realized I do, but >> Oh, sorry. >> Did he Did he He's muting it. Mine. He's a fucking quick mutter. That's impressive.

>> Yeah, it's very classy. It's good so that he's not coughing into the mic. We've got a a big button with a light on it. Yeah, can do that. >> That's pretty cool. >> Our now is just quite ill. We're recording anyway because we know the I mean, we're doing it for the fans. >> Yeah. And talking makes me cough, so that's why I'm [snorts] talking the least possible. >> And I keep asking questions. That's good, isn't it? >> Yeah. Um, what was I saying? >> You were saying what did how does it how do you feel about Golden Demon for next year? I'm going to do stuff but instead of doing something for GD I'm going to do stuff and bring it to GD if you know what I mean.

>> Y >> so the all these years I well the last the last three years I worked actively to bring something to 4GD and instead uh I think I'm going to do whatever I want this year and if I have something to bring I'll do. Uh, so obviously because I have commissions, I know that I will bring something, but I think I'm not going to worry about the GD because of the judging or the whole thing and just Yeah, I'll let you cough.

Um, it's it's >> there's I I I tried to have that attitude so many times. Uh, or I did. So, we're now 2 days after coming home from GD, and I've been here many times when I've done a Golden Demon entry for Golden Demon, specifically working on it for Golden Demon, and then afterwards thought, I'm just going to try to enjoy the hobby over the next year and paint as many nice things as I want as uh in as relaxed a manner as I can, and then whatever I'm I'm finished with and happy with, I'll bring. And that just me personally that never really happens because I'll I can't quite keep um I don't know that kind of focus display level painting in mind for a year. I just I need to know that I'm doing it for Golden Demon. Um but I do really hope that you can do something that you're you're really happy with and that you enjoy. Certainly enough that uh the award actually doesn't matter if you do bring something. Well, we had um an

interesting discussion in one of our waitings for Pokemon now, which was he he didn't feel hype. You don't need to talk yet, right? I'll do your talking for you. He uh he was saying that um he didn't feel hype this year, right, at any point. And we kind of assumed that we'd start feeling hype when we got nearer to it. And then we were there and there was still no hype. And then um I rightly pointed out uh that um he didn't feel hype because you didn't put any of your soul into it, right? There was no jeopardy. >> So you did a quick thing and >> and now um and then yeah, we were both like there. The solution would just be to do like an amazing piece where you spent uh 50 100 hours on something, right? Which for our now is a really long time. But now it's the And then we were going on the last day to the results. We had that conversation, didn't we, about why don't you just paint paint things that you want to paint and then bring it if you do. I'm interested in you don't necessarily want to feel something or is it that you want you're annoyed that if you put too much of

yourself into GD you'll just get fucked again like you have the last few years. And I don't mean results, but >> I don't think it's because of the the award. Uh because, you know, uh how do I say it? A commended would still be a bad result. >> Mhm. If you're not winning, >> but I mean, yes, but but not getting a a sing a pin feels feels a lot more than that. feels more like I don't know it feels >> slap in the face >> what targeted almost but for some reason but so my >> it's the third time >> my feelings are >> sorry >> uh no second >> I see >> but um yeah I don't know I I feel disheartened by the competition in a sense I I already had I always felt weirdly

about GD because it's not a competition that I mirror myself with in a sense. It's not what I like. It's not the style I like. It's not how how I want to be as an artist, right? So, I've never had GD as as a competition that I want to excel at other than just nostalgia, which obviously that's the biggest part. >> So now I guess this those feelings are enhanced. Uh, so I don't know. I just want to do my It's like for example, Mark Mark Mask cleans, but in my opinion, one of the best pieces of the competition. Uh, it was for me either Albert or or Mark for the sword.

>> He didn't play. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And and he didn't even And he didn't even place. And that makes me sad. Very very very very sad. It's the same thing. It's It makes me I cannot say other than that because it's supposed to be a very good competition and >> you know it's literally one of the best Warhammer pieces in the world and he didn't even get >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Same as Bora for example. Boras is incredible.

Oh, I don't know how much refinement it needs or but still >> well is two two things come to my mind. >> Oh, sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Go on. >> Try and be quick before I forget. The first one is um >> you can win with your style as you did with um the gold in Manchester. And the second thing is um and that was why I knew I'd forget cuz fuck Bohan's style. Yeah, we we don't know the judge. They're not artists judging it, right?

They're literally two blo That's quite a funny place for me to pause like looks like I've had lip surgery. Um there's just two blo judging and then an artist, right? So from that perspective, it backs it up. They're not going to be able to see these real artist quote unquote things that maybe Bohans and Marks are. >> Um you've got Rohan, but Rohan's one bloke, right? He and he's judging a shitload of fucking models. So, it's unfair for one bloke to get all of that right. The other two guys are going to be much more influenced by GD style, which but again on the flip flip when you did that diarama which was really good in Nottingham, you had real artists judging you then. You had um Max Filet, right? And his whole team >> and that. So, so I mean we'll never know. I I still think honestly they missed it but never >> go on in this one. I mean, >> yeah. And this one maybe I I want to say with the whole artist thing, like I think I think um the the Max

specifically, but a lot of the AMO painters, I mean, some of them uh might not have appreciated our now style that much either. And and Max personally I know definitely wants to promote different styles. Like I've I've heard it specifically that it was he was uh gunning really hard for Maxim Peno to win the Slayer Sword in 2019. Uh, and it's not to like make a point, but it's it's certainly um to like just kind of remember to promote something that isn't just clean and perfect, but actually has something kind of else going for it. And I think that's one of my favorite S sword winners of ever. And it's phenomenal.

Just nothing like controversial about it at all, but it wasn't it wasn't a completely a sure shot. Uh what what makes me what what makes me sad and and discourages me is like talking about Mark's piece for example and Boras um they are it it can seem snobby which I would hate but I think they don't get recognition and and they are miles ahead of a lot of pieces.

So it's not like you cannot win with um with this style. Obviously you can but doing so much more doesn't get you almost anything. You have to do a lot. So because um this more pictorial styles they have a lot more incognito and a lot more um things right. They have values and interpretation and they have they are not simple which they are a lot more difficult to decipher which in theory it should be a good thing but in practice it's bad because then someone who's not used to deciphering pieces so complex sees them as bad or as wrong because the the easy piece the easy pieces um are very identifiable.

>> Yeah. You mean easy to read as opposed to easy to paint. >> Exactly. Exactly. So >> what makes me discouraged is that actually you are pushing against a wall >> because you are you are doing something that it's actually extremely difficult and not only you are not getting recognition but you are getting pissed in the face in in some cases metaphor. >> Yeah you're almost punished for it. I I get what you're saying are now like the more you the more complex your work the more intricate the less easy for the judges to actually appreciate.

>> Yeah. But the harder the harder it is to execute. So so you if you had um a scale just going to ignore my camera now. Um if you had a I didn't I didn't anyway. Fuck it. If you had a scale, I I can't illustrate it with my hands for fuck's sake, but it would be the harder it gets, the harder it is to win basically in in this style because if you if you it's specific to that style, right? Cuz cuz the stuff that heavy metal style, quote unquote, just to make it easy to say, it's not easy to do, but they're different skills. They're wildly different skills, right? Is the >> Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about this before and we touched on it. this idea of what is impressive and what is good.

Like I can certainly see some pieces that one and and and definitely a lot of stuff online in general that is impressive and it might be smooth. It might have really sharp highlights or just small like well- definfined details. That stuff can be really impressive. OSL can be impressive. NMM that kind of stuff. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. like nothing is objectively good, but it doesn't certainly doesn't mean that it's complex or well composed or uh the the kind of ref um refinement that you're talking about. So, uh yeah, I think that's that's definitely a danger with the with judges not being experienced painters themselves is that might they might look for those impressive things or be swayed by them, think that this looks really cool.

It's a really important weird thing that I'd not thought about before that whole concept for you guys it being like I wonder going back to your piece. I wonder if it was I don't think the full rules apply or the full statement you made about I think Markx is more applicable than yours because yours you could still interpret and read and understand it, right? >> I totally agree. I I I think Ernell's piece would is impressive. That's the thing. I think it's very imp it looks very impressive.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Cool. That's cool. >> Yeah, definitely. Even if you're like anyone should be able to look at that um and be and think, "Wow, fuck. That's really cool. That's impressive." I don't see >> even if you're not >> that's gold pin at least a silver, right? >> But that's opinion, so we don't need to. But yes, that's the in my mind that makes it's quite a clear thing for that to to be right. Um And yeah, and then Mark's thing. Well, it doesn't affect many artists, right? There's not many people doing that kind of style.

I call it a style, but there's but it is I can understand. Yeah, I mean it's pretty crazy. Well, someone who is also doing this style is Richard Gray and he has not had any success in the last few years as well. Um, so traditionally it's it's not it's not easy to get good outcome with it. >> Doesn't Isn't Isn't Richard Isn't he much more GD style? I've always had him down as like pure GD. >> No, not at all. I think he's he's one of the one of the only ones who's not GD style on the on the UK panorama.

>> Well, >> I agree. I agree. For UK painters, he's really not a UK painter. >> Interesting. Okay. All right. So, it's at a quandry and there's no real hope and that's basically why it's it's uh a thing for you. Yeah. >> It's disheartening. It's Yeah. It's like, well, I I need to know that I just have to do the things I like and go. And if it happens, okay, nice. If it doesn't, okay, nice. I just did something that I it was cool and I like it. And that's it. If if I take it some other way, I'll have a lot of bad feelings which I don't really want. So >> yeah, which is where you're at now.

Although maybe it's not as >> No, I I don't I don't because I didn't put any e effort on it and and you know it was >> Mark did, right? Yeah. >> But it it's actually it pisses me off. Uh it pisses me off more for him than for me. Um, for me it's it's not the fact that I didn't get um an award. It's it's the absence of it. Absolute absence of it which makes me Yeah. And and it's it's worried. The word is worried. It's like I don't because I don't understand it. Um I think it might be personal or targeted. I don't know. But >> I would I would Yeah. Sorry. Go on.

>> Yeah. targeted makes the least sense of all in my mind. I I don't think >> personal makes no sense. They would really want to punish you. >> And there's there's people they would rather punish a lot more than you, I imagine, who they probably even gave awards to, right? Um yeah, >> I hope. [laughter] >> Yeah, that to me doesn't that that Yeah, that's the least. I think the the band is an interesting one, but I can't think what for um >> the Batman. >> You mean disqualified?

>> Yeah, disqualified. But but [snorts] if you're disqualified, they kind of should tell you. I think like it would make sense, right? Just a quiet word. Just be like >> if nothing else, uh I thought about this a lot. Like if something is disqualified for any reason and it it could be uh our nail piece, it could be the Green Knight, uh it could be Golem from last year, but whatever it is, it would be good if all of us could know a little more about it because the I feel like the rules are pretty clear when it comes to adhering to the IP and nowadays it's certain restrictions on like how you build your piece like AI generating backgrounds or using a 3D printer or I don't know whiddling away a piece of wood, whatever you're not allowed to do anymore or or sculpting something from scratch now is only for the open category. Whatever it is, I'm like fair enough. Just tell us about it and make it really clear because the the big thing that scares me is that it creates uh uh Yeah. Sorry.

Who? What? What? >> No, sorry. >> No, no one said anything. Yeah, [laughter] >> you wrote what did you want her now? >> Uh, no. I I I it was for Jamie actually to start the recording for one second. [laughter] >> No, not not for >> All right. I can't remember where we were, but uh it's a new It's a new thing. I've got I've actually got some new uh got some new audios to do. Some new uh [snorts] what are they called? Jingles. But I don't have I don't have this. Okay, >> this is the jingles.

>> This this is this is this is a new segment. Okay, so each week I'm going to do it. It's basically think Jamie's diary. Just for a segue, I don't know where we were in the video. >> I think we're done roughly with Golden Demon and our misgivings. >> There was a little bit of a down note on the Golden Demon thing. I did pick up a gold trophy, so that was nice for me, but there were other there were bad things also mostly related to Arnau's experience. We did have a really good >> Exactly. I wanted I wanted to the shit sandwich, right? >> Yeah. >> I actually didn't want to focus on my on my thing because I It's very much worth our time. Like I really >> Yeah, it's important.

>> But I was very happy because you got something a goal no less. Sorry. [laughter] Um, and yeah, uh, it was overall I I felt like the the level was was pretty high. Uh, there was some really amazing pieces and that that really that actually motivated me. Um, because I I want to paint Warhammer now, which is a good sign. Well, that's part of our GG update. I obviously normally we do the intro and everything like that. Um, anyway, we'll get there. We'll get there.

Um, I thought I'm slowly coming to terms with it being in Essen. I saw that Warhammer community asked us to send feedback. So, everybody who entered Golden Demon has the feedback form. And what do they think about it being in Essen? And excluding the fact that I hate that it's in another country, which ironically it would be if it was in the UK anyway. Um, like I don't I think it's good. I do think the overall experience is pretty good. If we could be slightly better or nearer, I would really enjoy that if we weren't so far away. The the 40-minute drive each day. It's not like it's a drainer. Driving is nothing and we get to spend time together. But the main problem is when I drive, everybody's on their phone. Uh and I think that it sucks the soul out of me when I think we're once a year on a holiday and people just want to use their phones, which is fine cuz I and I >> I I want to I want to inject here. It's actually not fine and it sucks.

>> It It sucks. Yes. >> It's not like a It's not like a random sort of every opinion matters kind of deal and you're like, I dislike it and we all think it's perfectly okay. I think it sucks. >> I think it >> You have every right to tell us to stop being on our phone. We should >> we should make an effort next year. >> I think um if we Yeah. If we're going to spend time together, let's do that. But that's an US thing and maybe other people have it. But yeah, that's that's that's certainly certainly there were certain parties in our car and they're all Spanish. Um, and who were >> my my phone was the GPS so I could >> you were fine now and and that's why >> you were absolutely fine now. It was especially me me and Albert after after the awards ceremony.

>> We did all of our like >> uh like uh after wrap up kind of like backs slapping with every other painter in the whole world. We did that immediately. I think it's fear of missing out slightly and and that's the hype and >> and and and and honestly if it was um like if if it was after the event and one of you were like look Jay I'm just going to spend like half an hour diving in it's cool now it was the whole event that certain people were on the phone and that's why it's boring but shit sandwich so the event was great right so here's [snorts] the new segment okay I haven't quite thought of fucking hell this camera is good this pathetic I bought this camera you know this I bought this motherfucking camera specific specifically. Yeah. To use as a so I don't have to have this monstrosity looking at me. Um cuz it it takes up like 80% of my uh viewport. Um and it's shit and it doesn't support 4K which is what I thought it did. It does have 4K but it doesn't the output.

Anyway, things I learned is is is going to be the new segment or >> Oh, great. >> something like Hers I don't know. Right. this week. >> I think Revelations >> I wanted it to be a a double H like you know HBA but you can't go like you can't you can't go there like hello Huta or or you know Hal isn't even anything it's not racist it's nothing to do with that person either it's just a German word so um things I learned this week and then the jingle plays okay >> people brush their teeth twice a day right the standard is much higher than I realized for painting.

>> This is basically like my mini This is almost like my fast as a race car. >> What's the first of the things that you've recently learned that people brush their teeth twice a day? Was this new information to you? >> I realized I was taught it as a kid and I haven't practiced it for 30 years. >> Okay. So, you knew it, but you haven't done that. >> I hadn't cognitively clocked that people do it still. I kind of grow out of it like >> Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. No, almost. I mean, most people do that for sure.

>> It's Yeah. And Oh, I I didn't I I didn't know this this in my head. This segment wasn't we we weren't going to But I suppose that's like a >> Sorry, I mean, we can we can, but yeah, like um it's >> I was I was a little bit taken aback by that, but but now I see you just want to you just want to shoot. >> Maybe maybe afterwards we can go through ones that are more um Yeah. And and I wasn't trying to I appreciate it, Mark, because it shows. >> What is the second one? >> The standard is much higher than I realized. So, oh shit, I can't dive in. But it's about painting. Okay. And Golden Demon. Golden Demon.

>> Um, we've got more than five listeners now. Okay. Um, I like Pokémon a lot. However, the boxing, the unboxing I just did of three boxes of booster packs has slightly skewed my opinion now, which is really good. I think it's a positive thing. Um um more people like Darren's rule than I realized. That really threw me off. Um for context, Darren's rule, if anybody doesn't know, is Darren Leam from Games Workshop a year or two, two years probably introduced a rule where you have to sculpt everything yourself on a Golden Demon entry. So you you can't even have likew sculpt your head on a model that was 99% sculpted by somebody else already, which is weird.

Um, and you have to scratch build it. So, that's the rule. Now, obviously, I'm I'm I'm leaning in there that I think it's a stupid rule because of my tone. >> It's a very stupid rule. And I really I really um was taken aback that so many people agreed with it. >> I I really I I couldn't even believe it. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. Right. And then the next bullet point is but more people dislike it than than like it. But still, I was surprised that some people do like it. Um, [snorts] uh, not wanking for four days is mental as a as like someone who's doing that a lot. Uh, I was really surprised and I and I I I it happened without me even thinking about it. I I don't think I ever got to a point where I was like, "Fuck, I really need a quick one." Like, I thought that would happen more, but I think being ill and and then >> you were ill. You were you were out of it.

>> Yeah. And obvious Yeah. Right. Um, spending intense time with friends in a car, hotel, event is underrated. Um, I actually think that that is good and I haven't had to do that until now. Albert Martin a better painters than I gave them credit for. So, we don't have to talk about it. Um, GW's media blackout is intense and I think it's uh comically defensive. So, if you work for GW, you cannot say anything on social media basically of any opinion or talk or >> I think the term comically defensive is good. I like that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um Byron maybe doesn't hate me anymore. Um >> Oh, interesting. >> Maybe. I don't know. I've not spoken to him. [snorts] Um you only get what you give. I wrote that differently, but that's what it means. You only get it what you get out. So, that's why I paraphrase you. You only get what you put in, right? Unless you get fucked from GW. So, and then you still get and then you still get you don't get nothing, right? Basically, what we all just spoke about um the the the GW there seems to be a shift in GW staff. Now it seems every it seems that everybody who who I speak to at Games Workshop who worked there or recently worked there is generally positive about their time there in in in the '9s late 90s early 90s early 2000s um most people I speak that stopped working fucking hated it.

There was a bully there. There was somebody there that made them quit. They they did stuff they didn't want to do. So um >> you mean sorry is that head office in general or the entire company in general or >> it seems like head office head office. Yeah. Yeah. People Yeah. And and I think that's really good because these people that I uh like and revered and uh look up to and some even though I don't know them. I'm just like you did work I loved when you talk to them and get to know them really well. They just fucking hated their time at GW and you're like oh shit. You've created all these like happy memories and now you're shit. Um, the new pin system uh gives much information to painters to where they are. I didn't say if that was positive or not. Um, and Yum Bloods still lacks entries. Now, this was very Golden Demon ccentric. That is the end of that segment. Um, it won't be it will just be things I learned that week. Okay. And I'll just jot down. So, yeah.

>> Awesome. I like the things you learned. I like that you uh you had bullet points for your takeaways from Golden Demon. It's very concise. I hope you'll do the same for Monte. >> Oh shit. Uh [laughter] yeah, I guess I could. I mean, in theory, I'll be there, right? And >> you will be there. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming two or three of them will have to do with lasagna, but it's still your impressions. It's fine. >> I do am very much looking forward to that. Right. Do you want to dig deep uh into any of those? I'm a little curious as to you.

We are better painters than you give us credit for or something like that. >> Did >> Did you think they were not? [laughter] Do you want to go through all the ones you want to dig into or do you just want to jump into one of them and then see what we >> No, no, digging is big. I'm I'm >> I can elaborate completely on that. Like >> it's fair. I mean, we because we don't we haven't I don't think you've seen that much of my work that you would have a like if you thought I was here and I'm actually and now you think that makes sense that there's nothing weird about that but like Albert had a slayer sword 2 years ago. I feel like you would have been familiar with how good he is and now you suddenly think that he's better than you thought he was.

>> I'm glad you asked Martin. So um my my my I've got a very weird relationship with painting in general. I think like I never meet someone and think, "Oh, you're good at painting." Like all the people we meet in in the hallways of whatever GW, I know they're winning golds and blah blah blah, but for some reason I still I think it's is I think of them as human like >> that makes sense. >> Like I I don't >> I wish everyone did that actually. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I go I go I go in thinking like prove me that you're a nice person first is kind of how I'm like and then I'll get to know you and then if you happen to be good at painting I'll be like dude you're fucking good at painting and he'll be like normal people be like oh thanks but you know so that's what happened here. I don't even though I've known Albert for years I still there's two there's there's the painter and then there's Albert if you >> I see where you're going. I see where you're going. That sounds really empathetic and and sweet though. That sounds like you were just premiering me as a person to me as a painter.

>> Yeah. And now I'm like uh even if you hadn't won, I was still impressed by the piece, right? So So last year's piece just got an itch. So I'm not picking my nose. I just have an itch. Um >> inside. Yeah. >> No, it was inside. I couldn't I guess I could have done that. But um like fucking even if you hadn't won, I was still like I really I I your your piece was nice, right? Um, and and Albert's I I know his stuff well and I it's a harder thing to digest because I've seen so many of his pieces. But it's the same for you are now. Like when when I when I actually take I think that's what it is when I take a second to remove you guys from you.

>> I'm always like fuck like I'm like that that's that's good. And I'm like, I can't sometimes cognitively clock that you guys are able to do this, if you understand what I mean. >> It's actually >> I have a funny anecdote from Freicks that relates to this and it's >> it's exactly the same. There was this this girl that came to the to our stand and we were talking to her and she she was with her other friend >> and we were talking for a bit and she was like do you know that these two guys are one of two of the best painters in the world and the the friend said okay like >> yeah right >> I I don't give a shit they are just two persons who am I talking to and actually it's it's the same because she didn't she didn't give a shit because she was not a painter.

>> Yeah. >> Um but but if if a few years down the line being a painter she realized uh what we know or what we do then she would have had the same uh the same reaction as you which is like oh but you really are a good painter you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. because they they realized it themselves instead of >> I've had that happen to I think I've been to like games workshop stores even where I don't think I don't think I actually go in and be like I'm going to be metal painter but there might might have been a point someone might have said it for me and then literally a staffer in a warmer store is like oh nice >> like it doesn't even I'm [laughter] like fair do fair do like you don't give a shit about that side of the hobby Um, and it's completely reasonable. Like, we're not celebrities, any of us.

>> And that girl was to be, you know, it's it's kind of nice that she was just talking to you. >> Exactly. >> She was just standing there having a conversation with a with a person. So, I think, Jamie, that it makes a lot of sense that you would separate us and certainly not have any more uh like respect or like someone more because they can paint nice. >> Yeah. So, if anything, I like them less. >> No, I'm joking. Um, but really uh it's yeah, that that that's pretty much it. So, slowly as well to lead on to that from a personal journey point of view, I've um I've cleaned my desk now. It's fully fucking clear. I even wiped it with my hand um to get all the the shit off it. And I booted up the airbrush to clean it the after using my hand. Um, and I even had to tell my Warhammer group, "Look, I'm not going to play 40k anymore." So, I'm I'm pretty much I'm I'm I'm Don't get me wrong, that might all change when I crumble into a ball of shit and shame when I try and paint. But, I'm I'm

pretty sure What was the lesson I learned? Um, you only you're only as good as you want. You You don't >> You're only as good as your last piece. No, >> no. Don't care what you do. lesson. >> Think think hard and prosper. It was basically along the lines of um fucking ah you only don't enjoy painting when you try to improve. >> It was it was more >> I think that's true. >> It was more concise. Oh shit. Look, even this camera breaks. So maybe it's a software thing, right? Um, I I'm sorry for blaming the camera, saying it was shit when it wasn't the camera's fault, but yeah. Uh, I want to I want to in this rehabilitation of painting, right, which I am back in. I'm I'm basically there now. Um, I want to be like, what's the word? I want to be mindful that I don't like fuck it up. I don't know if that's true. If that's a, you

know what I mean? You want to be mindful of what you what? >> Yeah. No, I'm not. >> Okay. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. You're not follow. Right. So, I I'll go back when I've not painted in 5 years. Okay. Basically, um and in those five years, I was I was very happy to like not paint, if that makes sense. It wasn't like I was um >> Of course. >> Yeah. Right. And and but I was always like, shit, it would be lovely to paint this thing. I see a diorama and I go in my head, I would love to paint this diarama, you know, or or or my own diarama, basically. Oh, okay. So, so all right.

Fuck. To sum up, I'm getting back into painting now. I I can feel it. Have you ever seen an anime, right, when all of a sudden um you can see the character has a mental shift and they suddenly understand something or they they're desired like and they click in and annoyingly that's them now and they've got that and they're like super desired and they'll keep their ninja away for the rest of their fucking life. But >> in real life, you can't keep that same motivation, right? I've got that motivation now, but it's for me it's like a year or two. It's not my life, but it's an intense two years. I'm I'm I'm basically So that relates to this the whole thing of you guys are I see you now as or a part of you as painters.

I now want to get better at painting. But the whole epiphany we had in episode two or three was the harder you try, the more you you don't enjoy it. Basically, if you start going to courses, you start reading books, it becomes less of a hobby. becomes more like I want to get this. So you're when you stop hitting that you get demoralized if that makes sense. You stop seeing improvement. >> So >> yeah, it it doesn't have to be the reason but but an extra. So the reason has to be because you want to paint.

[clears throat and cough] Sorry. But the the learning is is is an extra layer. >> I I really enjoy more when I learn. But it's not the reason I paint. and never never has been. I always painted because I really wanted to and and the opposite happened when I was drawing. I really wanted to draw because I really wanted to learn how to draw and I hated it. >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah. Yeah. That's where I was at. >> Yeah. >> I want to say something as well for for we've been on about practicing before and I think to a certain point you're learning. No, you're getting better at painting by painting whether you want to or not. Trying to get better isn't isn't so much a conscious effort when you're painting.

>> It might be it can be it and you can you can learn um a lot a lot faster. But if it's the only thing that you care about, you will you will exhaust yourself because it's very demanding. It's extremely demanding when you paint like this. you end up exhausted when you paint. >> I mean, that's like >> I'm thinking of stuff like, you know, painting like an army. So, like you have actually painted something and I know that that's some of the stuff you've done is like aggressively speed painting quickly just get stuff out and you're probably not learning anything from that. But you can you can paint pretty much anything and you're still you've got a brush in your hand and you work with like you're you're maybe you're getting better at like the consistency of the paint or you're just getting a steadier hand or you're getting a better eye or you're maybe you're doing like a super quick uh space marine army but you are doing like all the eye lenses properly or doing some markings on your sergeants or anything anything all of that will like it will actually probably

help you a little bit and if you're conscious of that stuff and maybe uh focus more on that stuff, then you'll kind of find yourself just getting better. >> Well, while while we were talking, I typed up so I didn't forget. And I forgot, but I typed it so I remembered. Right. I can already feel myself painting to finish, but not painting to paint. Right? So, I'm already aware, which is painting to finish tying in with learning. Like, I'm excited for the outcome, which is where I don't want to be. I want to paint for painting for fun. Now, that being the process, sitting down, getting away from everything, learning, having your ideas, making them come out, like all that stuff, right? Um, but I've always painted to finish.

uh that painting to finish is a powerful tool too but on the last >> 30% of the project >> because when you are tired it's like where do I get this the strength from it's because I really want to have this finished >> yeah but starting from the offset is is is the so that's what I need to explore and that's what you guys are here for and I think the difference is I don't. Yeah. I mean, literally, we could we could go through I can take photos and we can even do online demonstrations together and talk about what's wrong. We've never gone to that place before, right? We've never gone to >> Of course.

>> Yeah. Um and then that's where I can learn. >> It's obviously it's not the this place to talk about this, but >> if you if you really want feedback, ju just ask it. I mean, obviously you have >> I came up with an idea in my head as well, right? Um, I want to come up with a I don't know if I need it. Maybe when I get into it, it will be fine, but I want to come up with a a ranking system. Yeah, maybe it's unhealthy. I was going to say different categories, right? And it would be like words that are like tags almost, and it would be like, I'll finish a piece and then I'll show you because maybe I didn't show you the process, which is bullshit because I would show you literally as soon as I even base something. I'll probably show you uh but like it would be like yeah this is dog shit and then I'll know okay I need to improve on that or at different scales right so it' be like yeah dog shit you're getting better long way to go and I had all these ideas of it was a shower thought I don't you know saying it out loud it's less but um

yeah it wouldn't work that way I was thinking of like solid feedback and then I can go away and work on it but it doesn't make sense cuz you would have been there from journey. So, you wouldn't have that same way of saying something cuz cuz I remember my old problem. It was I felt I wasn't good enough at volumes. I was getting really annoyed at volumes and I couldn't resolve [clears throat] volumes rather than let me paint 10 models, enjoy the process, and slowly I'll get better at volumes. >> Yeah. >> Basically, and I I do believe that it's better if you try to get it yourself even if you have to fail first.

>> Yeah. But obviously if it's going that far that you are losing motivation, you just ask and we solve it for you. So you always have that net, that safety net. But >> because it's not the point, right? Failing is good. Uh it's not like you it's not like any of us uh never did a mistake in volumes. We always did. Of course we did. >> But at you get to the point where you start learning. But they're um >> by doing it >> they're intertwined. That's meant to be lots of tendrils intertwined rather than just like >> like uh like they're so intertwined in that if you're painting to finish, I want to sit down with you and I want you to spend an hour going over every single mistake so that I can correct those individual mistakes. Right? Whereas if I paint to paint, I could paint two or three pieces without asking for feedback because I'm less interested in making those pieces perfect.

uh and which is how I'm used to painting you know the whole thing of the courses I used to do which taught me a lot like they are where I am now but I had the wrong I think I just had the wrong outset the wrong thought process around it you know I was doing these courses to finish the piece but you know what do I gain from finishing a piece nothing really >> for me the best feedback is when you have already finished the piece because then >> and you know yeah >> I can yeah I can go full full in with the feedback and then all these things you will not do it on the same on the next one. It's not that you have to change anything because all the failures >> well all the mis not even mistakes all the >> failures >> good bad things from the figure >> are yours you know it's not like and the good things too and and the next one will will be a step up from that >> so I >> I agree it will be it will be so much easier for either of us to have anything to say about a finished piece and maybe

even not the same things And that will probably be super useful for for you to listen to as opposed to I've done a base coat, what do I do now? I've finished this loin cloth, what do I do now? I've done this face, now what I you know, >> yeah, it's a bit dangerous and it it the worst way that could work is like you finish something and you're not really even know how you did it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, the positive news, boys, even if this episode is a cluster fuck, is um I am I am uh I am back, I think, >> which is a weird thing. You know, I've never said that. I don't think in in the in the six years. I don't think I've ever fully committed openly. And maybe I have, maybe I'm I'm saying that I think I might have once, but um >> all three of us to have some solid entries for Golden Demon next year. Like solid stuff.

>> That would be great. >> I might enter Monty. >> Yeah, sure. >> I don't give a shit about Monty. Or now it's not even there. >> Go on now. What were you going to say? um that I I just had um a PTSD when Lionel didn't want to hear you say we are back. >> Oh yeah. Shit. [laughter] Forgot about that. That was funny. Uh Martin basically we we like rekindled Mini Matters like three times I think when he was >> three or 10.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And we'd say we're back boys and then that was it. We recorded one episode. Uh I am very very glad that we are back. Not painting, just back the podcast is is >> I think we can say it now. Like for real. >> Yeah. Yeah. Five more episodes and we would have broken the season uh longest span. Um fuck I I I like I've got a few ideas in my head of stuff I want to do. I want to do the I I mean we're just go like let's just say the podcast's over. This is like Mini Matters Extras, right? This is just not as bad as last week, but I'm just going to quickly It's not real content here.

There's no substance, right? It's just bullshit. >> Yeah, we be warned. Listen. >> Exactly. The start of the episode is usually slightly more cognizant. Like there's there's some kind of content in the start of the episode. You are now at the end of the episode. So, beware. >> This is the stream of what I want to do. Right. So, I I'm really excited to do the Avatar because I think it's a really nice standalone piece and there's creative freedom. I can You don't have to do every brush stroke or every line perfectly, right? It's fucking molten lava. It's also on the flip really hard to do. I did do the Forge World one and I didn't give a fuck about how it came out. Right. So that's that's like proof that I can paint in a completely relaxed I'll experiment and I had a lot of the avatar that I did Juan's one was the most fun I can remember having on a piece because I was just fucking around like and I'm happy to play with it cuz it looks like better than not painted but it was like relatively shit and I look back and I'm

like ooh like I could see where I but I still had fun. So, a part of me wants to do the Avatar. I don't want to I'm I'm like in a really weird way um Stan's piece taught me how Golden Demon kind of operates. Like I'd never clocked it before, which is really weird thing to say with Albert's pieces cuz Albert's pieces are >> Yeah. Yeah. Albert's pieces are so precise, right? like his freehand is crisp as fuck and his eyeballs and you know eight hours on an eyeball and actually I you look at that eyeball and I can't believe he was able to physically do it you know a fucking iris with color and it's like 1 mm thick anyway so Sterns sort of showed me that that's that's golden demon like sort of personified generally obviously backing up more are now but extremely crisp extremely tight like it's taking it's taking every metal and maximizing it, right? You know what I mean? Like like you look annoyed there,

Mark. [laughter] >> You definitely want to say something. >> It is for sure that. No, no, I don't. >> No, like the the the the freehand is like it's so perfect, right? And that that was all I wanted to do like 5 years ago, six years ago. But now, like I think if I if I spent 100 hours on a piece, I think I'd get I would be painting to finish basically. I think that's the best way I can sum it up. I I'm It's the same with my heavy metal elder project. I paint to finish so it's not fun, right? And I don't know if people who like paint those pristine perfect like basically most of Golden Demon if it's fun if the whole process is fun because you have to be so good. It's it's it's hypers skill and hyperfocus and you combine them together and you get this piece right which is just like you look at it and everything is it's just perfect. Even the conversion work was amazing and for right now in my journey

and and I don't want to do that. I want to I want to explore myself actually and then I want to come back and be like that's where I want to put my cuz what Alfonso taught me Banshee where I'd come from this way where I spent 120 hours on my golden demon piece. Um, and I look at those pieces and they're I think they're really good, right? They're they're more proud of those pieces than the pieces that I like are more free and blah blah blah experimental, but I think they'll kill my um creativity.

>> Oh, I think Yeah. No, go ahead. Um, so what you're saying with a lot of words is >> that you really don't want to spend 150 hours doing something. >> Yeah. Actually, you could sum that up. No. Well, what Stan taught me was that that's what Golden Demon is. >> You talking about Stan saying that with words or his peace taught you? >> His peace. His peace. Yeah. He didn't say it. >> Yeah. I saw it made me realize to to win a Golden Demon, you have to >> produce something borderline perfect, right?

>> Well, yeah, maybe. But he didn't. Exactly. I mean, >> I know, but he should he, in my opinion, he could he could should have. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. I think Stan's Stan is one of my favorite painters people and I I think one of the reasons why um I re I like his stuff so much and why I'm so inspired by it is is the same as Albert. But Albert is like this like mutated Captain America super psychopath version of it where [laughter] every time over the last 8 months that I've been excited about Warhammer of any kind and it's been a few different things he's been painting that wizard.

>> Mhm. >> So every time I've like had anything to do with this hobby or or even other hobbies it's like he's been painting that wizard. >> Yeah. And so yeah, there is there is really an absurd amount of skill and talent >> and he's really really very good. >> It is a little bit. Yeah, I think I think people might might not might not actually realize I think that the photos that he put up today of the work in progress of how how much work he did just carving out shapes out of a >> a hand the the little pearls that go around the hand. That's be that's long before even putting those pieces together and sculpting around them and and then painting like just prep work is like days or weeks.

>> Yeah, it was months. It was like months prep work on that. >> It's uh it's patience. >> I wouldn't say patience more than anything, but that level of patience I think few people really understand how patient you have to be. >> It's patience and a will. An iron will. >> Yeah. And it's it's crazy to think I think that's the the thing with Albert as well. Like you could you could argue that he did it because he wanted to win and get another slayer sword and you could definitely argue that because that's what he said. But I think all of us put that work in knowing somewhere we know in the back of our minds like you might not get anything for this like awardwise.

>> You'll get uh satisfaction and people will say nice things but in terms of Golden Demon specifically you might not actually walk away with anything. Um, and we still do it. >> Do you remember what you're going to say, Anna? >> I already said it, I think. >> No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Martin said, and you were both going to say it. You didn't. >> All right. No, I forgot. I completely forgot. >> So So yeah. So, exactly. But that basically is why I'm saying, Martin, that I don't I realized two things. I won't win a Golden Demon for a long time. In 2016, I was convinced I could if I just get better. I was like, I definitely can. I know I've got the skills to win one, but those nine years of people have just got a lot lot better. And I was never that good in the first place. But I have I know I've got skill, but it's not the skill. And even if I did have the skill to be able to win, I now don't want to don't want to refine that skill to to win to do that, right? I want what I what and I'm

grateful that I'm able to now work out and this golden demon taught me. I want to produce pieces that I love and then I want to enter this golden demon because I love the piece. I want to show people and I want to win something cuz I'm I don't want to just lose but I know I won't be winning the big stuff, right? That won't be the motivation for painting which I think hopefully means I'm not painting too paint uh to finish. I want to I want to produce cool shit with Elder basically. as it should be. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's only taken six years to clock it.

[gasps] >> Right. >> No red busters. No. >> Oh shit. Yeah. Right. Um [laughter] >> no. Uh things I hate. Uh fastest race car. >> I did. I had it all. I had >> Well, you did. You had We had one last last. >> Yeah, we had fastest race car on. No, the the GR slow as a snail. Oh, Grot. Fucking hell. Yeah, you're right. All right, let's Fuck. Okay, you ready? Grotbusters. Where were we? Okay. >> I think I know all three, so I I really want my points.

>> You ready? Hold on. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. >> I mean, we said we'd finish the podcast, but we're BACK IN. >> I KNOW. I THINK. >> NO, I don't. >> All right, boys. Thanks. I I'm this is this has been like a therapeutic episode much more than any like a personal journey and no one needed really to be there for it. So um f the first one have it your way. What do they put what do they do with their burgers? >> The flamer. >> You got to wait for Martin R now. Now he's going to say flamer.

>> No, I was not. >> Seriously? >> Yeah, I was not. That was our >> That is a reference to Burger King where they flame grill their burgers. >> Good. >> So that was for the extra point, >> right? >> Oh, to explain it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> One. >> Yeah. I mean, this quite obvious, I guess. >> Sure. Two n now then. Right. Next one. Uh they are flying all over the place but kept bumping into each other, right? Just do you know that? Dark angels. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Fuck you. Yeah. You both right.

And then the last one. >> Probably probably the easiest one you've done ever. [laughter] >> The last one. >> K. Do you know it? >> No. >> I think I do. I think I do. >> Some of those little hard things in the soup. >> Croutons. >> Yeah. Yeah. So cr Yeah. Right. Fuck you. Right. I didn't I don't think I've got any this week. I' I >> There's the band as well. There's the band. >> Oh shit. Did I not give you the results? >> No. >> No. >> Oh my god. I don't know if I write >> that. I have no clue.

[clears throat and cough] Shit. Hold on. Um. Oh my god. >> This I actually don't know. I actually just know the the first one. >> Okay. Um uh Oh, okay. W the last bad asthma. Yeah. Weezer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I saw a play the other night, >> but the heating was knackered and ruined everything. >> And the band something on C >> C. So, think about a band. Yeah. Okay.

>> I thought you said you didn't know it. >> Um, >> and then the young man was prepared for his death. WY. >> What? What were the initials? >> WY. >> WY. Yeah. Uh, [snorts] >> no. >> Will Young. >> He's an English artist. You might not know. Not very famous. >> I don't know Will Young. No. >> Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. No, that's cool. Okay. So, Grot, uh, we don't have a fucking Grotbusters this week. All right. Just letting the people down.

Maybe we shouldn't put this episode out if we got no GR busters. What are the people coming here for? Um, and I was meant to do it while we did the episode, but we were just I just the camera troubles and blah blah blah. Right. Um, fast as a race car. I did ask you all for one. Um, >> we did. Yeah, we got we got a good faster race car on Sunday after GD. There were some race cars. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. In the episode. >> How long have been we recording by the way? Two hours. >> An hour. Yeah. >> An hour and a half. >> No, I mean, how much? Yeah, I would I would say not because it's But it's >> And don't drag. We're just dragging on, aren't we? No, I don't think it's long.

120 minutes. >> Ah, okay. Yeah, because we started it when anyway. Right, [snorts] boys. Thank you. [laughter] Just call it. >> Yeah. >> Brilliant. [laughter] >> Feels that way, right? Uh yeah, thanks you too. Um, and we do have a Discord.