What is Art? Miniatures aren't?

>> I I Yeah, I did. I did know. >> Did you know that Batman? >> Yeah, I've heard rumors. Yeah, but they've had everyone on their podcast. >> Well, they haven't had us. So, >> no, but like I I like literally [clears throat] they've had Brad Pitt on their podcast. >> That is really Oh, wow. They're doing all right then >> in fairness. >> Everyone >> Well, after the betrayal of Albert, >> Albert now comes on their podcast twice a week. It's just it's a whole thing. >> It's basically their podcast to be honest.

>> Yeah, as far as I know. Like I said, I've only heard like two or three other podcasts. >> What's annoying is I I learned what GitG Good meant because of GitG good and now I see it all online all the fucking time and it makes me think like how did I not know? But anyway, our our this our podcast, yeah, we have planned for you today exactly what we have every week. There is nothing fucking new. And I'll dare say I've not even prepared Gropbusters or Family Feuds or whatever Faction Fude. I can't even remember what the fuck it was called. I like that segment though. Um but it's good to be back. It's good to be back. We had um had a we had a break, didn't we?

>> Did we? Yeah, we didn't do anything last week or the week before. >> It's been some kind of a break. >> It um I always feel like [snorts] like when you leave the house and you know you're forgetting something, but you can't place what it is. And and I only realize when we come back on the cast that it was missing the cast that I missed, you know? >> It's um >> I agree actually. >> Yeah. I I I I personally think that holidays we should still record when we're on holiday, right? And you should tell your >> Go on. I did record from my um yes, your your humble abode.

>> We'll bleep it out. You can say where you were. We'll bleep it out. It's fine. [laughter] >> But the the audio was awful. We've got AI for that. But I actually meant like if you're in Barbados for a honeymoon. >> Yeah. Didn't you record the very first episode of this season before I joined? Weren't you like in your backyard? And >> we're in the garden. >> In a backyard. Yeah. >> Mine. We We try not to talk about those. That's that has been expuned from the record. I I >> That was That was incredibly chaotic in a good way. I enjoyed that.

>> I don't know if it's even released. I don't even know if you can go and listen to that anymore. >> I don't think so. >> Like there's these like there's like three episodes that are now an idea. >> That's just for the real fans. >> Yeah. You'll never get them back. [laughter] >> The legend. >> Um we should talk. Right. Right. Okay. Hold on. Let's Let's just quickly >> I'll tell you exactly how long it's been. >> Oh, okay. >> Sorry. Fuck. Oh god, mate. No, Ted, how long's it been here? I've >> I set a timer because we talked about having a timer separately from the Yeah, >> you're very >> I'm going to see if I can't put some uh put some uh little >> segments for when we bit [laughter] >> fucking winning. Right, we have thought of the day. A new staple.

[sighs] I [snorts] told some people at work some of the thoughts of the days and uh it's interesting um things I love. Okay, so that's just that could have been a thought of the day but I was like you know what I actually want to say that and so fuck it. That's a segment. Um the things I've listened to this week [laughter] um so you're going to do a Jimmy's diary but split into [laughter] section >> and then we've got Dr. the dub bus [laughter] and also task masters and >> we've also got masters up.

>> We've also got news. We've also got task masters. No, no one else gets the joke, right? We also have the journey. We're bringing the journey back. Now, for anybody who doesn't know what the journey is, it's basically the reason why Arnau and I uh or or we had the podcast before, right? Lo and I, but we were struggling. >> Well, >> it wasn't it wasn't news and it it wasn't really >> and then Arno and I were like >> we were just got into gaming and we wanted to have a reason to paint more.

Uh that was what the journey is, right? And the so you got task masters which is obviously you paint or we do one thing a month now someone elects something but the journey is where do you want to be? I want to have army painted. That's actually changed now. My journey has changed maybe but we'll get there in the segment but that's the concept of the of the journey right which has its own >> yeah it's more like a lifelong project or >> yeah exactly >> things like that >> okay >> the journey now of course that's meant to be a horror film and there's smoke over a graveyard and then some twat just whispers >> it's terrifying so I think job done >> and that is in my opinion what actually task masters is more like but yes the journey is in its own is very intimidating I believe um [snorts] so that's it oh no >> no news journey task masters motherfucking shit that Jamie wants to do and then Dr.

Lovebrush Dr. the love brush and mine. >> Of course, >> now's new segment. Yeah, >> there's a segment that we did that we forgotten what we called it, but it was when I say an antidote your English phrase or SL. It's not quite slang, but yes, I now is bringing one from Spain. >> Extra extra points. Extra points to any listener who can tell us the name of the segment. >> Yes. Oh, and busters. How could I forget >> the solution of Yes. And I would >> and for any listener who who isn't who doesn't know this, we are keeping score.

So when our now says extra points, you're getting points already. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. We have a secret notebook with >> Yeah. If you didn't know that.

>> Uh-huh. [snorts] Um, now news. This is a big This I think I honestly think this this show will be a fucking monster show to be honest with you. Um, hold on. So the news. Okay, I actually don't even know where to start on this news. There's a lot of news. It's good news. It's the best news. It's It's news that you want to hear. >> Do you want to hear it? >> Very much. >> Yeah. >> I had hoped that when I said it's news that you want to hear, one of you two would then go, "Well, fucking tell us it." Um, I was sort of semi- teeing you up.

Okay. So the the first the first bit of news is we have semi-replaced Lionel with LG. Okay, now he doesn't know this. >> He doesn't need to know this. >> Um but he is kind of now um probably the fourth most important person on the podcast. I dare say probably more important than you two. >> Um >> yeah, >> you know, >> I'll take that. Yeah, >> at least outside of the pod. He actually although I was I was impressed that Arno actually managed to write two messages on the Discord and that that that threw me off a little bit. I like whoa [laughter] fucking calm down. Are you all right, mate? Martin, you still got to get there. It's fine.

>> Hey, a guy asked me a question with like my name attached to it and then I answered. >> I ignored it. >> Did you really? >> And then it was a long a long answer as well. Maybe your name is >> so many words in it. [snorts] I don't even recognize your name on Discord to know that when you've done it. >> So maybe that's what happened and I I I didn't >> That's just my my That's just my name. I just have >> Nah, but do you know what I mean? Like like LG Michael changed his fucking logo on Discord and for like a week it threw me off. I was like, "Who is this posting?" >> Oh, okay.

>> And I was like, "Oh, it's it's it's it's the it's the avatar, the thumbnail that that and I don't know what yours looks like to be honest." I I'm assuming now is Fuck. When I see it, I remember anyway. It's >> our nose is the little demon. >> It's not a cat though, is it? Of >> course. For now. >> What? >> You are now logo. >> Uh, it was the dragon Russian concept artist. Yeah. >> Nice. She's good. >> She's also very pretty. Not that that matters, but she's [laughter] um So, yeah. I So, he he's Yeah. Well, you you Mike have been Yeah. Thank you for your help in a non-gay way, of course. Oh, I wanted to try a new segment, right, that um that Albert suggested. Um which is uh is this name gay? Right. I thought I thought that is a good segment. Or we could do >> wrong, right?

>> I mean, it's modern day era. You can basically say what you want as long as you don't look offensive. Um I was also thinking you could ask me maybe what animals are gay and then I could tell you back what I think are gay. And then we and we don't have to stop there. We could even go to like cities, you know, clothing style. Like I think there's a lot of room here for some good top top quality content. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> Good. >> For sure. >> Okay. So, in short, we we give the Michael the the honorary title of >> L. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> He's earned that. >> Yeah. That was that's the takeaway from everything Jamie just said is that M Mike is now Lionel or maybe even the Lionel because it's a title. >> I mean it's the title. Yeah, it's Michaela the Lionel. >> That's right. The Lionel Tony the um Steve the Garcia. I I I do really want to do that gay segment though by the way. That's not I'm Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I saw you very excited. So yeah. >> Yeah. Know I I I would love that. Um it would be a lot better if I was gay, I think. But at the same time, I think it would like add in its own sort of nuance to it. [snorts] So, the second piece of news is Arnell and I are actually going to the UK. We're going to Warhammer World. That's not an invite, by the way.

I'm not saying like if you're in the area, come don't >> not even to me. >> Well, no, but you're in fucking Bner Regis or something. You're in I don't know where you are. You're in Sweden, right? But you're not even in the main city. >> How do they even have internet where you are? >> That's amazing. Yeah, I'll just fire at that slide. Absolutely. Say whatever you want. >> I I do I do I'm curious though. Where do you think I am actually in in what city and country? >> Like banter like no banter >> or like or [laughter] like like >> it's hard to know with you, man. But I imagine you get what you're saying >> to be like there's like a cliff face like I don't know you could see it like a kilometer away, right? It's a huge and it goes up and then you've got like you're in like this weird tri like this it's like a valley but not cuz there's just sea >> like like for let's say 40% of where you can see and there's snow outside and basically have you fucking seen the film the TV show from Netflix Ragnarok >> I haven't it's it's brilliant it's all

in their language um and well that's a TV recommendation right there but it is really Ragnarok is the guy from He's Thor, right? But is he? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I I saw the trailer. >> No, no, no. It's It's some random dude. It's No, they're not actors that you'll know. But it's quite cool. It's a It's a It's worth watching. And that's without spoilers. As as Mike saw, [snorts] >> I have no idea what you're talking about, but yeah, that's what it looks like where I live. >> Yeah. And then there's snow and it's kind of cold. And then there's houses. >> But I said I told you I'm going to the UK. And also Arn Now is in the UK all the time. So all you're saying is you're going to the UK. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Do vis Oh yeah. Well, I'm I'm hard to [laughter] keep up, man. >> But when are you going to the Right. I mean, we don't need to do this on the cast. But But [laughter] when are you going, though? Just just just check that. >> Uh midFebruary. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I'm going tomorrow. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz of Christmas and shit. >> So, we're going Warhammer World. But we are not going to play 40k. So, that's that news. Okay. I realize [snorts] that might not be that interesting for everyone else, but it is for me. That's what I'm That's basically my life right now. Um, we bought Hero Quest. >> Okay. That's Warhammer. [sighs] >> Oh, Dark Water.

>> Yes. Nice. >> In uh Do you know what it's called in um German? >> Uh Dank Vasa. >> No. >> Yeah. No, it's very close. Vasa. Yes. Um I've forgotten what it's uh fuck. >> Dunl Vasa. >> Dunl. Thank you. That cracked me up when I saw in the in the Yeah. >> Did I get it? Yeah, you did. More annoying. I live here and I talk in German. >> No, no, I got the English, but I was in the games workshop shop. >> I was I was picking up my old made to order elder obviously. Um, so I I mean I thought I had lots of news, but that's it.

>> Is it? >> That's okay. It's >> Well, it was it's I think you I think you thought it was a lot of news because of your level of excitement. Now, also I think I wanted to talk more about like TV shows I've watched and other stuff and then I realized no, people don't want that at the start cuz we're 6 minutes in and people want it at the end. So, it's fine. It's fine. I'm all right with that. >> 15 minutes in, but that's we we paused it for ages, right? We're we're only on seven minutes recorded, >> if you say. So, >> I've got it there. It's black and white.

It's gray. Gray and white.

>> So, news. Okay. Task Masters, boys. This is a big one. Now, I I'll I'll quickly put a little warning out there. Paul fucking hates it if you say you're going to do something and then doesn't, right? >> Aka aka >> any normal human being. >> Aka I've missed the last two task masters. I think [snorts] >> the last two only. >> We've only done like three, haven't we? H >> I painted a space marine. Yeah, that's all I've done. [laughter] I still >> in the history of the podcast, you've painted a space marine.

>> Well, for task masters. >> Yeah, I get it. I get it. But like I feel like you were quite keen on doing Taskmasters and it and you've you're not >> Yeah, but that's that's not important. >> It's the idea. It's the idea. [clears throat] >> The [snorts] thing is it's like I do it with best intentions. Like don't get me wrong, I'm not like let's do task master, get everyone else to do and then fuck off. It's >> I think that's what Paul was furious about. >> Yeah. Not with me, I will say. Although he has mentioned in the past that I don't like you uh and that kind of thing, you know, he even he's still on the he's still on the Discord. Um no, but he he has pointed out in the past that he was marginally annoyed that there was a task masters and I didn't do it. Um but that's fine. You know, I don't do task masters for other people.

I I do it for um I do it for myself to hopefully do it and then when it fails I'm like, "Yeah, that's a shame." But um yeah, I I can give my update if you want it. >> Oh, please. >> I'm leaving. I'm leaving tomorrow, 7:00 a.m., right? And I won't be able to do anything until I come back on the 1st of January. And >> and we will record the 2nd of January. I have today built my model. >> Oh, well, >> sprayed it black.

>> Oh, okay. >> I mean, I I'm borderline already finished. So, my my intention for everyone will be tabletop and that and I realize that is what I've been planning or wanting to do from the very start is is to paint a model that I'm borderline crippled by fear to paint. Uh, and this will force me to do it. and I've taken the first step. So, I'm quite excited. So, hopefully after this show, unless it's a 4-hour show, uh I'll have like an hour before dinner and then I'll have to pack and blah blah blah something, right? Well, it's something. It's something.

>> I mean, I I still have faith that you will do something and I already told you even if it has to be Apollo, I it's fine. Like, just throw some paint at it. >> Even Even if it have to be what? >> Apolog. >> Oh, Apollo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a a cool way to paint a Killer Can. Actually, I thought Kilican was going to I thought it was such a nice model because you you really can paint it quite quick and dirty and it will still look like it's supposed to. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You hope. >> But here we are. >> Dry brushing.

>> Yeah, I'm I'm very impressed by Mike's version. The fact that he did that like in two days after the Taskmaster came out was baffling. Like how could anybody >> The lion. That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah, he is the lion. Um what about you? I mean, I've seen our now. I haven't seen yours. mine. >> You've seen a little bit, but you haven't seen it together. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's about it, mate. Like I've I've got I've gone even more straightforward and dull than are now con. We've got the same idea, but he's put more work into his his is just much more interesting to look at in every way. Uh much like the man himself. So, um I'm going to I'm going to just >> trudge through the >> I think you're explaining what the what Taskmasters is all about though in my mind. What what your [clears throat] [laughter] >> exactly crippling failure. You're you're like you're you're doing it.

You're not you're not meant to want or have experienced it before. >> Like >> you know what it is though? That's Are you Did you want to go down that >> is that what it is actually? >> No. Well, no. It's It's You're not You are meant to want to do it. It's meant to be a task that's not so um hard that you can't do it relatively quickly and something that you've not done normally. It's it's to take you out of your >> your normal. I I thought I thought what what would be a thing to do that I haven't really done before. And I did find a couple techniques and things that I would that I wanted to try out. So, this was perfect for that.

>> I'm very pleased. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to end up with something and I can take something away from it other than just having done it because the podcast ordered me to, which would be not ideal. >> Army like, >> do we have any ideas for the next Trust Masters? >> I have a couple. Yeah, >> cool. That'll be the cliffhanger for next season. >> I mean, I don't know if you [laughter] want to hear it or or not. One of them actually >> what we >> one of them actually as an idea is instead of doing a a long uh commitment like a month commitment because then what happens with a commitment like this is that >> you don't start >> the pressure builds up.

>> Yeah. >> And and the task masters the whole point is to not have any pressure whatsoever. But uh and I'm assuming that doing a a cool project um is is is pressure and we have to assume that task masters will be shit because then none of us will have any pressure and for example doing one one figure let's choosing whatever figure and let's say in this month we have to do this figure but you are only allowed to use 2 hours >> on the whole month. You can only use 2 hours. [gasps] >> There was another one of painting with your left hand for example.

>> This Yeah, these two hours you know that you will spend very little time. So you have to definitely go out of your comfort zone because you will have to slap paint like a madman. Uh and you know >> plan it's Yeah, it's it's an idea. Um I I'd forgotten that that >> you want you want task masters to be more experimental. >> It has to >> it's meant to be a throwaway thing at the end of the day. >> It's it's the whole point. The whole point is to do something that you would never do in a way that you would never do and that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And actually and for me now it matters a lot because I'm really liking what I'm [laughter] doing which is not the point. I mean I'm very happy that I did it.

It was the point of when I >> thought up this task masters because I I'd forgotten the initial concept because we had the journey sort of they were going hand in hand. >> I think I can I think I can say something. You you you want to make an orc army and you wanted us to do kilans not not for us to make models for your army but you thought you wanted to do one anyway. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> And that >> I wanted it to motivate me cuz I was struggling to do it in the first place. Right. And I actually thought it was a perfect model as just like a quick pallet cleanser fun experimental thing.

>> I guess >> taskmasters encompasses all of this >> basically like the >> it's good to know for the listeners as well if if we if if you um if we if you join the taskmaster project the next one then uh ours can expect you to do something uh weird and something you're uncomfortable with possibly something painful. >> [laughter] >> Well, that is >> actually good luck with that. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. I think I have mixed feelings of course because when I do something I wanted to do right and but that also can put some pressure on you maybe if I do too much.

>> Especially one of the task masters we did was we did speed painting together. So we did a call. There were like nine of us in the end and the task master was everyone paints the same model and you've got like however long. We did it quite quick probably too quick thinking back >> because if we maybe we're making the effort to do the call >> was like 20 minutes or >> yeah but that in itself maybe we should do like 40minut speed painting together or anyway. Yeah, t I I I still think Task Masters, and I haven't changed my mind, is a fantastic idea. And >> it is, it is.

>> Yeah. When we start getting the troops rallying behind it, I will enjoy seeing the things. Um Oh, another task masters was the PEZ dispenser. >> The PEZ dispenser and um and the um hormagant. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that there's some some inspiration for you, man. >> Empty base as well. >> Whoops. an empty base. >> Yeah, I'd like to do that one now. >> Anyway, >> the empty base will be one for sure. >> Yeah, >> I think I even I could do that in 2 hours.

>> Yeah. >> So, that is taskm except for we haven't heard from now. >> Um, mine is almost done. I only have a little bit to paint, but I I'm really happy because I found these products that are fucking magic. this Dirty Down. >> I wonder if I've got it. >> It's the brand. >> Maybe I can buy some >> 3D things. It's It's magic. It's like you can be an absolute uncoordinated gremlin and you would do well because you just have to slap things these things into the figure and it looks perfect. It's fucking amazing.

>> Not on black. >> Yeah, >> you can use it on black. I mean, you can, but it doesn't look as good. >> What did you paint it on? I I've I've used it myself, and I base coated the thing with brown just to have something underneath. Is that what you did? >> No, I did metal. >> Oh, right. It's a I think it's a really cool product as well. I agree. I've also used it on like scenery and stuff and I think it's fun because it's one of the only products I've ever used that's >> almost random and that's the point of it is that it it literally behaves in an unexpected way and that's the point.

>> Yeah, >> it's very cool. >> Yeah, >> you have to obviously and also because you can remove parts of it. It's it >> with a with a with um clean brush or something that you can um it's not it's not scrape it. you can almost reactivate it and remove a bit, but it's not like you you touch it and it goes away. It's not like that. >> Um, it allows for some some tweaking.

>> This is probably a good time to mention that we are still open to free samples and gifts and we will happily promote any products on the podcast. Um, we've just got the issue of of like seven listeners now. Like once we break that, then >> Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? Seven >> steady increase. >> Potentially be seven very rich, wealthy. >> Yeah. >> That could be a huge customer base for one company. >> They could even be shops. They don't fucking know that. Could literally be three retailers who want to stock, but they're like, "Do you know what? I've seen Rust >> and for some reason they haven't sent me free samples knowing that I'm like, you know, I'm doing like 100 million a year.

>> Yeah, >> we could be the guy. So, we are not above doing promotion if you send us samples. Do you know what I mean? Heavy. I'm not talking little promotions either. Like, it will be a good endorsement and and we'll bake it in that it doesn't feel like it's an advert. They'll be like, "Oh shit, I didn't." And then they'll be walking down the shop and they'll be like, "Oh, fuck. Isn't that that shit that Arn Now and Jamie and Martin like?" I didn't even know that. I can't even remember them talking about it in an obvious way. So, yeah, we would do very good promotion food. Yeah, like the whole the past 10 minutes. That's our basically our pitch for any company. If you want us to do what we just did with Dirty Down's rust products, >> they're excellent >> uh weathering products that you can buy all over. Uh if you want us to do that with your like anything just I mean >> shoes yeah just anything >> conveniently.

>> Yeah. >> But the fact that we've only got seven listeners means that we probably are going they probably will be hobby people. >> Yeah maybe. [snorts] >> Well yeah they they seem limits talking about hobby. So either hobby and or anime people. >> That's true. Well, no, we've had some negative feedback about the anime. Um, right. So that's Taskmasters and it's dare I say the best idea I've ever had if I came up with it. I can't remember.

So I believe >> it's the best. Yeah, for sure. >> Peanut butter from a from a from a jar. Is that weird? I find that weird. Like I never thought weird. I never thought I'd do it. Right. And I I got into I tried a peanut butter with um uh jam sandwich. Okay, that is good. I'm not I don't want to I don't want to tell people to eat and what to eat, but fuck me. I don't know if you're able to do that, guys, but I strongly recommend that you try it. In fact, on now, maybe we should try that together. Have you ever had it?

>> Yeah. Oh, why didn't you fucking say that instead of letting me [laughter] fuck you like you could have been like, "Oh, yeah, it's good." >> I mean, it's it's it's okay. I'm not completely in love with it. >> It's not it's not uh Spanish, so I now can only ever give it uh 6 out of 10. >> That is very I think is the shit. I think like especially with uh terrible white bread, peanut butter jelly is the the best thing ever. >> Yeah. >> I didn't say shit. I said the shit just for >> fucking wild.

>> It's amazing. Peanut butter in general. Peanut butter is one of my favorite things to eat. >> I I will say I think that the non-crunchy peanut butter is slightly offensive and uh I don't think I can respect including my children for eating smooth peanut like fuck off. You know what I mean? Smooth as shit. I want I want to feel the crunch in my mouth. which segus really into is this name gay? No, joking. Right. So, what else have we got? We got the journey. Now, this this one's a big one.

>> This is a big one, I think, for me anyway, personally on a on a personal level. Um >> I think my journey now, okay, I think where I've I've since Monty, I've I've I've got the bug back to paint, right? But I haven't painted. I painted a bit on the I had like two week of flu and all of my family had the flu and that took like two weeks to go away and then I had this like deadline for work. Um and it's three months worth of work but I just didn't do any until 2 weeks ago or or maybe less. So So now I'm going to the UK again so I won't be able to paint but I've formulated um a desire now I think a real cognitive um goal as it were. And it it seems to be um miniatures that I want to paint.

>> Mhm. [clears throat] A specific >> No, no, no. Just not not large scale at the moment. >> Uh this could change. The whole the whole idea of the journey is it can change, right? It's fluid. >> Yeah, of course. >> Um but I want to I want to paint like I just want to see how far I can go in a in a in a good in >> have I improved. That's what I want to see. I want to push myself on small minis to see if I've improved. And the reason why is I think that if I go for a big mini, even if I go for a simple one like a fucking academical bust or something, it's still going to push me too far. I think like I'll really have to care about how it looks and stuff.

>> And you mean that you feel more comfortable painting smaller scale? I think I can see f this whole came around from our conversation on now about how um for me I found it easy to do 40k because I could play a game of 40k in 3 hours and see what I did wrong like quite easily right I'll be like okay I fucked up here here and here and talk it through and really try and lock those thoughts in and I was thinking about >> yeah but what what I what I mean is that you do this because you are familiar with 40k and you know 40k so that means that if you relate that on the 28 28 ms.

Is that because you are more familiar with it? You are, you know, more comfortable even even judging them. >> Well, I thought it was like the segue between why I was talking about 40k was um I will get quicker feedback, not from you guys, for myself. I will finish a model more quickly, right? Like is is how I think it will. I I'll spend say let's just say a week on a model. >> You disagree? >> They slightly disagree. I mean 28 mm are not quick. Uh like an anatomical bust can be done extremely quickly because there's nothing I mean no no this is not about being a professional painter or you know it's not about that.

If it's if it's an anatomical bust, it just has skin. And with what what makes or or you know there's anatomical bust that have clothes, but so much what I mean is that what makes a figure more complex is that they have more elements. >> Mhm. Because what you have to do is when you have to change element is what drags the thing because you have to do another material another color another you know instead if you have one element you sketch it all and you work all and it's just it's impossible to to drag it other than refining it which it's you know it's not the point.

>> I completely agree. Yeah. So 28 more details is the worst >> for sure. Uh for example um a a complex 28 mil like for example uh Primark Lionel Johnson I would charge double to paint that than to paint a 75 easily because a normal 75 it's far less complicated even if it's larger or even a bust. >> Normal 75. Yeah, >> you should see the amount of sub assemblies I did for Lionel Johnson.

Actually, that that was a if you want to talk complicated. >> And also, Primarks are huge for 28 mil. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But I get what you're saying. >> So, sorry, one sec. My wife called me called me a twat. No. Asked me to drop the bike off [snorts] to her. Um, and I told her I can't. Right. So my reservations on your uh statement are now is [snorts] I get what you're saying. I get the logic.

But I on a bigger piece, fuck on a big piece, I think that resolving stuff to a high standard is more difficult when you don't know what you're doing. Whereas on a 28 mil, I know that how to resolve most of the stuff that I'm painting. Elder, armor, an avatar, maybe uh some spaceships. It might be the source material I'm more comfortable with, but I have now some of the elder statues from from Forgewell, the large scale that I tried to get you and Albert to paint and you both were like, "No, that's I don't want to paint that." Um, and I feel like I could paint that guy that large scale as fast maybe as a miniature maybe.

But I certainly couldn't do some barbarian at the same scale. That would that would take me five months because everything I'd maybe this is going back to the fact that I'm not comfortable with failure and I feel like I have to produce. >> Well, you said something that it it set off an alarm in my head in a way. Uh because you said finishing to a high standard and we're not even I mean it's the whole point is painting not high standard or not high standard. It's we first we need to paint. [laughter] You know what I mean?

Well my journey was seeing how far I've come. That's why I wanted to first test the waters in. Um. Mhm. >> And that is so that's not really that's now the thing is I was painting that warlock and I haven't finished it yet, but I was really like and no part of me didn't enjoy painting that warlock that I've done so far, right? Probably like two evenings, three evenings. And the result was better than any model I'd produced 6 years ago, I think, roughly. Um, and I enjoyed the process completely. And I didn't feel crippled or worried. And I didn't care if it wasn't good or bad.

just happened to be better than I thought I was going to do. And now maybe my journey's wrong. Maybe formalizing and saying I want to see where I'm at as a painter is the wrong concept. >> That's I don't think so. I think it's fine. It's actually if you are able to look at it constructively and objectively and and realize what level you are at >> without thinking I'm over that level or I'm under that level. You know what I mean? Like if you have high expectations of about your own your own outcome, you may be disappointed. But if you will just accept when it comes out and you and you understand that this is your level, you know what I mean? My my confidence is alltime low. So, >> okay, >> I I expect it to be shit. That's and and that's what I've somehow I've I'm just curious about. But you said you

want to see where your level like you want to see how far you've come is what you said. But but what is the act like what is the what's what's behind you now? Cuz you've had the six-year break. You painted some of this warlock. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Are you looking for like to to kind of evaluate how how that went? >> Why wouldn't you just paint the warlock and then look at that? What what's this? >> Yeah. No, that is what I would do. Paint the warlock and look at it. Correct. Yeah, but but um it's more I have some excitement maybe that I'm not as bad as I thought I was. And maybe that's maybe that's the objectivity coming in because I think I can be relatively objective.

Um >> and I'm like >> interesting. >> Obviously I again I hadn't when I was painting I didn't have any of these thoughts. I was just painting, but I realized looking [clears throat] back now, cuz it was 2 months ago, >> um or ish that like I'm I'm I'm impressed isn't the right word, but I'm I'm I'm pleasantly surprised that uh and I'm not saying it's a great piece either, right? Um but it's just it it was better than I thought it would be for how I see myself as a painter, if that makes sense.

>> Yeah, that's not understandable. better than for Yeah. for how you see yourself. Yeah, I see what you're saying. >> I I I kind of see myself now. I think I can't paint at all. Right. Like I have no because it's been so long where I've sort of built up this feedback loop of um I don't enjoy painting. I found it intimidating. People were telling me to do what I didn't want to do. And I was like I for the last like 6 months of painting, I just didn't enjoy a single day of it. But I was still doing it cuz cuz I thought >> that's what I enjoy. So it stopped becoming a hobby. Um, and now I painted this thing and it I enjoyed it and I liked what came out of it. So like there were there were no bad sides to it, right? It's relaxing. I watched TV. I in fact it was was painting this models probably coincided with me not wanting to play 40k as much as well cuz it was like >> having I'm having load I wasn't >> I remember I remember you saying sorry.

Um, go ahead. No, >> I just thought it was interesting the way you were talking about it at the time as being a real like like really just taking excitement sand from this bucket and pouring it into the other thing. It's like you can be excited about painting or gaming. >> But I I do kind of understand it. You're like um that that's where your mind is at and that's what motivates you to do one thing or the other. I do understand that. >> Yeah. And and you probably can have like I can still have sex and enjoy and paint Warhammer, but for some reason I can't mix two Warhammers.

>> I understand. I I completely understand. I hyperfocus a lot as well in things. >> But do you though are now cuz like you clearly have gaming stuff and >> but I but that doesn't require anything of me. I just sit and game. Uh painting is is is a lot more difficult in your head. You need to you need to almost think about it the whole day. You need to want to do it. You need >> It's immersive. >> And gaming is just I'm just bored. I just sit in my in the couch, put the the controller, and just game. I'm >> not talking about that gaming. I mean, you you play uh 40k.

[laughter] >> Well, I just mean like >> cuz cuz Jamie said that you don't combine 40k uh well hobby stuff. you have like you're you're playing 40k or you're but are now I know that you paint. >> No, I've got >> which is a little it's a little interesting to me that you can switch between painting your gaming stuff and your commission stuff and your own stuff that you just do for fun. >> And it seems to like kind of >> it's it's actually more simple than that because it's I just it's just painting, right? So, I if I paint mine, my stuff or other stuff or commissions, it's just painting.

>> Um, and then gaming, I just do it with Jamie when he comes, but it's not something I I think about it. He when he comes, we we play and that's it. He's talking about uh tournaments, doing lists every day, you know, >> dedication and commitment, focusing. Yeah. Sure. Sure. >> Yeah. And it's a thought process, like a way of life, you know. I'd do bedtimes with the kid and then I'd spend an hour just building lists >> rather than rather than now like if I I I'm now when I'm putting to sleep, not right now, but when I paint, I'm imagining the model. The imagination was the exact same as it was for the for the army stuff.

>> I was thinking how would this entract on a table? How would this do against this pairing? And now I'm thinking, how can I paint next? What? But yeah, I I obviously um it's frustrating in a way that I'm going to the UK because I won't get to do any painting when right now is the first time I'm like free as it were to actually do painting. But we'll do the museum. We'll we'll we'll create an eco chamber of our own excitements and I >> Yeah, I guess we will both need that extra last push >> to start the fourth season of the glorious Mini Matter podcast.

>> That's true. >> With uh painting. if you want to live stream the entire visit uh or just open up a call to me then >> yeah and let you enjoy it feel free >> well you're going in Feb so I think um I'll try and facilitate that >> uh but again you will have other things you want to do there but yes >> summarizing your journey is basically bing enough to realize what your what your level is at so like establishing a baseline of where you can start from >> it's a bit no You did you did you did point out a point though that I want to I'm I'm I want to improve and I want to improve in a non-toxic way. I I've got a desire now to to when I'm daydreaming about painting now I'm like seeing pieces that I'm painting and it's higher. It's above my level, right?

And that was probably the thing that killed me off before as well as all the other stuff that was going on around painting like people telling me what to do and stuff. what you mean by that. >> Yeah. And that and that I mean we've learned I learned the lesson that no paint for fun, enjoy the journey, but actually I I guess at some point you would need to say do you know what I'm enjoying myself but I want to I want to focus for 6 months and get better and then go back cuz I I I'm I'm not addicted to Elder Ring anymore. Right. So, however long that bug was, whatever it was, like 10 days, 100 hours or something.

>> You already let it go. >> I haven't let it go, but I'm not fixated on it. Now I have a slightly healthier relationship. I'll do two Well, it was by It wasn't by choice. It was because work came and they were like, >> they didn't tell me, but I know my deadline was was I had to go live last week, so I had no choice. I couldn't play during the so um and and that that was what changed it. But so yeah, I've played like two hours a day now for the last like 5 days or something in the evening and I still like the game. But it's a good thing.

Anyway, all I'm saying is it's a good thing cuz now I can I can flip that over to painting basically.

I'm very interested in this uh you both touched on it this idea of uh I think you call it like daydreaming Jamie and uh this idea of what how you're engaging with your hobby when you're not at your desk basically like >> I know a lot of us spend uh a lot of time on like social media looking at things and I think I'm I'm mostly uh find that to just be not a waste of time per se but it's it's too much time. I don't I'm not getting that much out of it. It's not super inspiring. It's not really >> I don't you know it doesn't feel like engagement. It's just like scrolling.

But aside from that, I it's interesting this idea of where your mind goes when you're thinking about your hobby. Um like the project you're working on cuz right now it sounds like you do a lot of uh like thinking with the the commission stuff you're working on when you're not painting it. I think it's more important than painting like >> really >> it it is painting happens in your head. I always say that it's not the painting the the act of painting is just the last bit of painting. But if imagine imagine if we were if we are not military figure figure painters if we are just paint plain painters the what differentiates a good painter than a than the best painter is what they paint. Not if they are good with brush strokes not if they are doing they have good technique is what they paint. So, and it's the same with us in a in a bit

different sense because obviously we paint on already made figures, but what do you want to do with the figure is what differentiates you from the rest and not how clean you will be, how detailed you will be. That's, you know, that has just it's Yeah, it's boring. >> It's a tool in a way though, isn't it? It's just another tool. >> It is. Yeah, it is just uh Yeah, >> I think the way you I think the way you phrased it was that miniature painting is all about decisions. And I guess making making those decisions can happen just as much when you're away from your desk, like when you're I don't know, in your car taking a shower or >> Yeah. when you're passed out in the gutter. It's it's like if we if we simplify it um with a I don't know with a with a ball, right? Very simplified a ball. And this ball uh is is metallic.

It's a it's a steel. We could the most simple thing we could do would be to paint it in a true metallic, right? Just plain lead belchure. That's it. That's one decision. The next decision would be to try to do a more uh comp like a metallic. And then let's do a ball with a highlight. That's another decision. Another decision would be let's do the ball but it's reflecting the floor. So another decision let's put the floor. Um then let's say that there's two source of light because one of them it's a reflection of something. Then another decision let's put another highlight.

Um, another decision, let's do different temperatures because the the floor is brown and the sky is is blue. Let's do two temperatures. Another decision is we can uh put a cast shadow in the in the ball. Let's, you know, there's so many decisions that we can do and how how far can you take it will make the figure better as any painter or as any paint. It's a good way to segment progression as well >> because then you can say, okay, I can I can I can do one thing really well.

That's the base level. And then I can add highlights. That's the next, you know, every step you just went through. If you're able to cognitively come up with and how to resolve those without painting, you'll find it a lot easier to do that in real life. And cuz you >> but then there's another there's another step because now we were on the on the first layer which is the simple one. >> It's just a it's just a a metallic ball. But what if this metallic ball is being rusted from one side?

Or what if this [clears throat and snorts] metallic ball is glowing from the inside? Or what if this metallic ball is under uh it's raining and it's in the forest, you know? So, it's not just a metallic ball, it's the environment, the situation, the and then we haven't even established feelings and and and and things like that. Obviously, it's a steel ball, so it's a bit difficult, but >> could it could have a personality. >> It's it's the starting point, the first the first decision that you make. I'm going to do an a metal ball. It's a it's a very simple um path that you can complicate, but it's still a very simple path.

So when you are thinking about these things, the first decision is very important because where do I want this ball to be? Do I want to have an environment to have a context to have a meaning of this ball? Maybe there's a little girl with with a with an umbrella and it's raining and it's protecting the ball and it's making you know you can do so much and we have so little mind sometime with painting that we we are just rendering. We are just rendering machines and if we are painters, if we want to paint, we can do anything that we want.

>> I'm a bit [laughter] >> but then it's um then you're only limited by your biggest fears basically because when you're young >> always >> right. Yeah. And you have these ideas. Let's say a taskmaster doesn't need to be a taskmaster. When you're young, you've got an idea and you just fucking do it and it's it's it's rubbish, right? But you fully embraced your like imagination and you you did everything that you wanted to do. And I mean, we've been through it, but social media and your surroundings and your expectations mean that you can't do those things. Like I've always said, I've got a billion ideas in my head. And I guess every single person has these ideas in their head. You know, you you walk around a studio, you walk around Games Workshop, you see online, you're like, actually, I get it more in person than I do online, weirdly. But, um, you just go to places, don't you? And you think up a scenario in your head and like, "Oh, that would be fucking cool, and this would be cool." And then you talk to your mates and but I never do it >> ever cuz I'm terrified of doing it. And

and >> I'm terrified of doing this and this this orc. So, I think this is a really good um thing for me to do because it's a baby step. it's got no importance and I can do the task masters, the the killer can and like it or not like it, I'll still do it. And I think that's the first step on my recovery. This is basically counseling at this point. It's the first step on my recovery to to say I'm I'm scared of doing it and to just start doing it with a really small baby step. And then once you do that, you'll be like, "Oh shit." I learned a lot. I think actually doing this army painting for the elder got me back into painting without me realizing it as well because I haven't painted any of them well but I put colors down on everything and I based everything and I just got a a feel for actually sitting down at the table again after like 5 years or something.

Um the original point was how do you paint in your head or why do you do it? Um, and Arnell might do it more consciously, but I remember Arnell talking about it with Lionel before, right? And then Lionel started to paint. >> Yeah, it's it's the whole thing that we wor that we worked in when we did the coachings. I mean, in my how I see painting, there's no painting without this because >> I can tell you there is. And that was all the painting I'd ever done. >> Yeah. But >> I know what you're saying.

>> I mean, and and I I I do this differentiation. It may be a little bit rude or you know but I do differentiation between coloring and painting which >> it's like coloring a color book or or doing a painting. You can color a color book very well but is it a painting? >> Probably not. >> Well, interestingly now fuck me I don't know if you did that deliberately but um our one of our questions is just search for it. Hold on. So, we we've obviously got Dr. Lovebrush. Now, the I don't know when or it was asked, but um LG has asked, "Is miniature painting art?" Now, I know this is contentious, and by contentious, I mean, I've heard people talk about it and dismiss it as art. Um uh and then, yeah, basically the basically that's the question, right? He wants to know, is miniature painting art? It's led into it perfectly.

um because I would have said no, especially before I met Alfonso. Um but I I was very um green in the field so I didn't know. But it's just an interesting that my initial reaction was it's not art. I always had in my head that art is um you walk into a a museum and there's art on the wall, right? Or a sculpture or so. And that's what I'd always had as art. And I never liked art because I found it very boring. But but there's something there because um I think it's most of the time it's not art.

>> I think but also it's a very complicated topic. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> The the first the first thing >> the first thing is that art is established by the by the viewer. >> So that was what I was going to Yeah. >> Yeah. You cannot make art. You just do something and someone may uh find it art for them. For me, art is like it's it's like something almost spiritual in a sense. The word art, it's something >> um out of the ordinary, you know, like >> Yeah.

It's it's the the top the top of of that like something uh this is really this is fucking interesting. Oh now I'll be honest I have never in my life asked myself what art is. Okay now and I would have always said I don't have an artistic bone in my body. I have a copying bone in my body. I I said I've got an okay technique in painting. If I see something I can roughly do it. I can spend but I've never thought what is art now there's loads of things here first of all >> now have thought about this >> I thought countless hours about this >> I now has thought about it I have also thought about this a lot >> yeah let me quickly >> go ahead go ahead >> right the first thing is Jason come Monty right Jason is Valbjon and this motherfucker okay he doesn't listen to podcast so I can be rude this motherfucker He might do. I don't know if he does. I don't think he does. Um >> he was taking pictures of stuff, right?

>> Mhm. >> And and I wasn't thinking this cuz I like him enough to think it, but what the fuck are you taking a photo of that for? Right. And then he'll turn like in my head and it's like a shrub on a fucking wall of something. And then he turns around and shows you the photo and he's probably put a nice filter on or something and it's like a fucking piece of art. You've got these like clouds in the background and it's perfectly in focus and he's framed it well and it's like it it's composition is good. And then you'll be walk we walked down the wrong road down some we walked into some bloke's basically house but it looked like a fucking drive and there was this thick as fuck green moss like super vibrant it would it rained that day right so it was a bit like you can imagine like it was like moss that you buy from and he was like fuck look at that moss me and Lionel we were having our banter he was calling me a twat I don't know whatever we were we were very oblivious to this fact anyway the point being art art is so subjective Ive right >> the most subjective thing.

>> Yeah, it really is. >> My kid draws something, doesn't give a shit, but that you can see they had fun and and they they in their mind that's art that they've just produced, right? >> To to a normal person, you'd be like, "That's not art." But they don't give a shit about if it's art because they did it because they wanted they needed to do it. >> It's an expression is what I was going to go to. It's >> It is an expression. Exactly. But it's also it's >> Oh, sorry. You were >> No, go for it, mate. Go. Go on. Go on. I've got more to say. >> No, it's just >> Yeah. Yeah. Say it. Say it. It's fine.

Go ahead. >> Come on. >> And then and then the second point was um was Jason in art and then me in in in my [snorts] thought process of what art is cuz I've never ever questioned what art is until right now. Right. Which is why I'm quite excited about this. So, I listen to a lot of music and I but I I don't necessarily understand music because I've never played music or written music, but I know that I I like I fucking love music. Um, and that's in my mind music's art, but I guess that's like fairly uh >> all music is art.

>> Yeah, cuz it's expression. But I don't like it all. To me, it's not art because it doesn't bring me anything. But it's still art to them, right? But let's let's say this and this can be done with with painting as well. If I if I tap on on a piece of wood and do a melody, is that art? >> I mean, it makes it makes me feel something. So, yes. Is that how I mean if if I literally I do like a >> You mean if it's a shit a shit beat or something? Yeah, I think so because it's what wants to come out of my body or your body at the time, right?

>> I have to agree. I have to agree. I think >> I know you might not be wanting that now, but >> I don't I don't agree, but it's it's totally fine that you're wrong. Um, for example, in in in painting in this in this sense, if if a child does a doodle, is this art? But to them, it's art. They don't give a shit if it's art. >> Oh, you're saying that you to do art you have deliberate. >> Interesting.

>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's completely the opposite. >> No, now is saying that if you look at it and you think it's art, then that makes it art. Not whether they want it to be art or not. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> It's >> if you listen to our now like clapping his hands and you think that that's art, then that makes it more >> if that moves you, it's art. I don't think it's that because I'm literally I I'm just having spasms in my hand and I'm just doing a rhythm. So, um if if a kid does a doodle and it's an absolute shit of a doodle because he's an idiot and nobody likes it, then it's not art.

If if this kid grows and he is a complete uncoordinated bitch and he does something that is very ugly and nobody likes it, it's still not hard. Maybe it's hard because he's very tortured and we don't like him. >> Well, this this this sorry >> this this now is getting into the territory of if you don't hear the tree fall, does it make a sound? >> Concept basically. But there's there's two in my that's completely my opinion. But there's in my opinion there's two there's two things that establish art. One is the the the viewer obviously and then the other one is the dedication or I I don't like to to to say that art is elitist but I I don't think that art is mundane.

For me, art is the top is the the thing to aspire, the thing that moves you. Absolutely. If everything moves me, nothing is art. So,

>> it's like how I can't always be happy. >> I think the the the the difficult thing here is is it's both down to us arguing what is art and what is not art. But then the other question is who gets to decide what art, what what is art and what's not art? because I think the easy thing to do would be to say that anything anything and everything is art. Uh and if I I think it's fair to go by the definition that if it if it's got if it elicits an emotional response then it's art and if it moves you then it's art. But there's so much that we would probably think is art that wasn't intended to be or that has uh more kind of design artistic design in it than is you know its purpose. So like architecture for example nowadays I think most architects wouldn't consider themselves art artists. It's more practical. It's more pragmatic. But also a lot of us would think that it's just not as nice looking. It's not doesn't look as pretty as it did 400 years ago,

>> but >> but if you look at like anything produced in the Renaissance, whether it was a building or a sculpture or a fresco or a ceiling, it's like, yep, that's all art. So by that kind of weird definition then it's like anything that a crafts person did in you know between 145 15 Italy that's all art. Um and by the same and and then going further with that like is food art is like you were saying music I mean every piece of music is that art >> is so I agree I kind of I kind of agree with what you're going for now is that like everything can't really be art. Um I think we're uh just to go back to like our hobby we're very quick to say that what we do is art because we use brushes and paints.

>> I agree. But like that yellow wall behind me, I don't think that's art. >> Exactly. And and that was my whole point. >> With a brush and paint, >> where do you establish the line between that kid doing doodling doodles and and an artist that spent years of for of formation and uh countless nights thinking about stuff and exploring and years of experience? How where this is the line? And if if the line is close to the child, then in my opinion, nothing matters because there art is everything. So I'll just shit a little bit beautifully and that it's art, you know.

>> So I I didn't think we were going there. So I wrote the things I wrote down, okay, was the god statue in Brazil or whatever it's called. Do you know the one? The big cunt with his arms up here, right? >> I don't think that's art, right? It's just a statue with a guy. But um I find a lot of beauty in some buildings that are made in modern eras and old eras where you're like, >> "Yeah." >> And and to me it's art because I don't understand it. >> I'm like, "How have they gone out there and fucking created with the engineering, with the the physics, and built this thing?" Right? I find that I find it basically magic because I don't I know I could learn it possibly, but yeah, it's it's this veneer of of of of awe that I feel for it, right?

>> And um a baby's thing. I'm not I'm in awe of of their state of mind when they create it, but not the thing that they've created. So to me that's art in in the fact that >> this thing that two years ago was just a blob of shit just like muscles and cells and stuff. >> But but is isn't this art or just the the beauty of nature [snorts] and life? >> But nature and life is art. >> But but everything fucking is art then not everything. Murder is not art. >> Um or or maybe Jason's uh Jason's pictures. Would you say that it's art that he's taking picture of or does it become art when he takes a picture of it?

>> Yeah, there's a lot of people you were gonna do it because >> Yeah, it has to be right because like there's a lot of uh photographs in museums that most people would say this is photography art. >> Yeah. >> So obviously taking a picture of it that's when it becomes art. But >> in that case, it's definitely not I mean that that seems like it would be very much >> um to the intention. >> So like if if someone takes a picture intending to turn it into art, then it becomes art. And if we're just taking selfies, then that's not art cuz every photograph can't be art. I I agree in some part and don't agree with in in other like for me art and this again is very personal but I think art is very honest and you it's very easy to become pretentious with art to want to do art. So this is and sorry. Yeah.

>> Cool. First of all, I want to I want to just um get it out there that I think I mentally need to realize that we we might talk about this for a while. I feel like we're pushing to conclude, >> but I don't want to. >> And no, it's I have a lot to say. >> Yeah. And [laughter] I I I feel a great need to talk a lot and quickly and I'm really frustrated that we're not in the same room for this conversation. Right? [laughter] Cuz then we could read the body language cues and know not to talk over each other. So that's the first thing I want to talk about this for a while. Okay.

>> Um we could schedule uh sorry you you can say other thing. We should maybe schedule a time when the three of us are actually in a room to have this conversation properly >> and really do it. Yeah. If this doesn't sedate no uh satisfy my uh >> it won't it won't there's no way we're going to get to a an end here. Yeah. What was the other thing? And the other thing is um I can't remember now but I was nearly gonna say it um before you interrupted mine >> but um >> can can I say one thing that I think it summarizes what it's art for me so maybe that can scratch your itch maybe not maybe it >> but for me uh behind a piece of art there's always honesty in a sense that it doesn't the person doing it doesn't want it to be art they just want to do it. The second one is that there's a lot of dedication uh on it like there's study, there's practice, there's so there's a uh technical aspect to it. Um so it's not random, you know, it's it's

deliberate but not deliberate in the sense that make wanting to do art. It's just a culmination of that person's wanting to do this in a best way possible basically. So the the twattack and >> just the last thing that thing about the photograph uh Jason is taking good photographs because he knows photograph because he's passionate about it because he he knows composition he knows what you know if I go with my camera and do a silly picture it will be probably shit because I have no clue about photography. Same with the architecture.

Behind the good buildings, there's passion, there's dedication, there's a a a will to do something beautiful. Doesn't matter if it's art, but they really they really like architecture and they want to do it. You know, they want to scratch their own itch. And that's what uh actually becomes art because of that desire, that fire that they have. For me, well, and that's another point. We are very quick to say that things are art because we want to do art. But then most of things are empty because they they just are made to be art which in my opinion and when I see them it it it not only moves not moves me but also disgusts me a little bit. [laughter] So okay there's loads of shit to cover here right from what I've written down. Um, [snorts] I was going to say it means that you're saying that the art has to be good for it to become art, but that's not true. I

was going to say that quality because they've experienced and they've researched and they've enjoyed it and they've whatever 10,000 hours that makes it art. But no, you said there it's more about the intention. So, I I'll delete that that that that counterargument. Um, the next one was um is food art. Now, I would argue that potentially yes, because that fucking chef who came out, he was so excited to talk about his food and how he cooked it and the techniques, but I never ever want to put food in in my before this conversation in my definition of art.

>> Right. >> Exactly. And it's >> because we have these instinctive ideas about what art is and questioning that can lead to one or two things, I guess. Well, it can be, well, no, actually this is what art is. Or you sort of have this weird like, oh, that means everything is art, which I'm I'm not I'm not really sure about. >> And that that that chef was passionate about it. He did it because he didn't want to make art. He wanted to do food and he wanted you to enjoy it. And it was his life passion probably to do that that those dishes. So it follows the same pattern as I think.

So by your logic are now a lot of different things can be art but it's really on a case by case basis even like one minute can be art cannot be art. >> Yeah. >> I I would say that 99% of pieces are not art. >> And some some pieces that are made with absolute passion and dedication and and they they hit the the the nail in the head. They are >> so the like the model stuff that you do. No, not at all because it's just box art. Maybe I did in my in my I obviously I I cannot say what side art for myself because I just I don't know. Some people like some pieces that I did and I hate them. Some people like pieces that I I also like.

So I don't know. >> Doesn't matter though. You have the dedication, the experience, the commitment, all that stuff. By your definition, it sounds like a lot of the stuff you do is art. >> But >> not really because I don't put my soul in it in most of them. >> The intention surely doesn't count though. Your intention on whether >> for me it's everything. >> No, but fucking I walk, you know, I go hunting, right? And I see a lot of wildlife when I'm out there. And hunting, ironically, is the only time I actually get to experience the true beauty of nature, weirdly, because I don't put myself in those situations normally. But when you're watching like a baby deer fucking dancing around and pissing off its mom and the mom's like, "Get the fuck off me." To me, it there's a lot of beauty in it and it's not art potentially, but if I took a photo of it, it suddenly becomes art. It like it's it depends if the picture is properly done, >> well done composition. But do you get what I mean? Like to me, I guess you you we're saying that there's a distinction

between that. But but when I'm looking at those, >> there's a distinction between beauty and art. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. But [snorts] it is arty. Oh, fuck. Fucking hell. I mean, beauty isn't art then on that definition. But then >> No, I >> Yeah, but but but my my reason why I don't necessarily know if I believe that statement is you get some dickhead with a banana and he puts it on a wall with I only know that art from from Mamachan, right? On >> like people. Now, my problem and also goodness about that thing is it gets you questioning what is art. I think I don't know what kind of statement it's making, right? But it it it >> that's the statement. That's the statement is >> now I'm realizing like but there's loads of dickheads who do shit like that, right? Not not Mamachan, the the artist who did it. Um >> and it's like are do they know are they being pretentious or do they know what they're trying to do?

>> Like a little bit >> Yeah. Some people think that um and there's a few well that what in the avanguards people thought or think that some situations are art or some some for example there's there was this guy uh that put some shit on on a on a can and seal the can and those cans had the the artist shit and obviously Okay.

>> Nobody knew if there was shit or not, but that was art. Many, many years later, they opened the cans and there was no shit inside. So, but the whole thing, they believe it's art because it's a, you know, I think it's bullshit, but same thing as as the guy who painted who sold the white canvas and for to trick this the buyer, right? It was a whole thing. But all all these things then are called art because they are a social commentary or something that a situation that brings I mean for me it's a social commentary and that's it. It's not art. But it depends on how you broaden the word art. And for me it's narrow because I want it to be special. But some people want it to be very wide and and everything can be art.

That's also fine. I guess it's just about >> I think the the weird thing for me personally, I don't know what uh I don't have a lot of use for the work art word art. Uh I don't really know what to do with it. I think uh there's no I'm not interested in uh describing the stuff that I do as art for any any specific reason. Uh I don't think necessarily that I need to compliment anyone else by saying that their stuff is art. I would much rather call it beautiful or you know anything else like there are better adjectives than say this is art. Um and so it it kind of yeah it becomes a little pointless. I know that's a little bit of a like a cop out of the whole discussion to just say I don't care but actually that is kind of my my stance is like I I really don't need that word.

>> I think it's the whole point because most of the things are not art. So you don't have to have the word art in the mouth all the time. Yeah. When you when you see art, you fucking know it. When you are in a in a cathedral um and you are fucking aruck with all the architecture and you stay there for like 5 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Because you are literally paralyzed. That's art. When when you see a painting and you cannot move from the front of the of that that's art like >> I get that. that goes back that it it yeah and it ruins a little bit I agree with you now but it's also that kind of um diverges a little bit from the conversation we're having because then if I'm like uh like that cathedral you know we were in churches in with in Italy and we did have that experience where we were all kind of standing there for 5 minutes just staring at the ceiling and if someone had said to me wow this is art I wouldn't have made a yes or no judgment on that I would have thought sure okay um but if they'd said,

"This looks like shit." I would have said, "No, well, actually, I really like this. This is really nice. I enjoy this." You know what I mean? That feels more like a that has more of a value to me, that word. Um, it's a little strange to um put that qualifier on art. And yet, I do also agree with you that it should be special because just saying everything is art is >> it doesn't that completely >> justffects the world. It doesn't need it doesn't need that much value, but it needs some value. It just means that okay, now it's completely without value.

>> Well, [clears throat] so here's my what I've written down. I don't need to keep telling you that, but um I've always considered or now in the conversation. I consider art to be something that moves me, right? But by that definition, a baby rabbit chasing another baby rabbit can't be art or or sorry, could be art, right? Cuz I think this is a beautiful moment in my head. I still remember it now, right? Quite clearly like and and the deers with the babies and shit like that, right? But [snorts] I would also argue that like going into a cathedral and something that isn't art cuz it's a building. But I think that the word I think Martin you've Yeah, it's good what you're saying. It doesn't need to be defined.

But I think you can define art and I get the concept of of uh oh now you're saying you have to it has to be deliberate and you have to be passionate about it and blah blah blah and then it becomes art but it's still a broad spectrum but also at the same time like people they could try and prod model soon but they can try and say it's art but then it's not art to me but then those dear dancing could be art to me but then I would say maybe art has to be a physical thing and a one-off thing rather and just say those deer is >> a man thing.

>> Yeah. >> And then I'd be like, >> "Yeah, I think that at least is a pretty fair uh fair qualifier is to say that like a beach or a baby deer or a sunset is not necessarily art because it's not produced. >> But then if you take a photo of it, it becomes art." >> Yeah. Then that art then that exactly and and like we were saying with with composition and with a thought to creating something and capturing something that it's that's the process that turns it into art. >> Children are the enigma here though because they're artworks that they're creating.

>> Yeah. >> No, but the thing is my kid's six. >> I don't think they are. >> No, but she's she's creating art. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's drawing stuff, right? And it's not as good as someone who's an expert, but she's been drawing for two years, three years, and like she knows. >> Well, this is sensitive cuz then it's like what what is the age where you become an artist or now? >> No, but I I think it's another thing is it's that is your child. If I see if I go into a class and I see all the children drawings, I don't give a shit about them. But then but the art is subjective which is the whole point of why it could be art to the parents.

>> Obviously it obviously of course it could be art for the parents for for sure everything that this will this kid will do it will be art like for my grandma. Everything I did was fucking perfect. Um but you [snorts] know it's just her same as you will do with your kid. You will like everything. >> Is it cynical though? Is it or is it just you want to have tight definitions on I [snorts] mean who cares? Kids don't need to do art. They're not they're not doing it for that reason, right? She's she's drawing.

>> And my whole point is that the person who does the art doesn't doesn't want to do art. If you want to do art, you are breaking the first the my first rule which is honesty. If you if you want to do art, you are doing you are doing it for a wrong reason which is not passion. It's just >> yeah I mean yeah it's it's um um I can't find the word >> pretentiousness >> because you want to do art you want to be an artist because I'm good I'm >> no you need a magician to tell if someone's being sincere or not in that right only the person will know themselves

>> of course but >> but we we we have to feel for us yeah well all the music. So, so the the the album of the week, okay, that I'm listening to cuz it will link in. It's a it's it's a it's fucking Spanish woman. The whole album is in bloody Spanish. It's called Rosalia, right? I think >> Oh, shit. You are listening to Rosalia. >> Yeah. I've never heard of her before, but this album's called Lux. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, actually, she's Catalan, you know. >> Oh, is she?

>> That's why she's so annoying. >> She's [clears throat] having a moment. She's being very popular right now. Yeah. >> Oh, is she? Interesting. Well, that would explain why I got this song and then I like the song. >> She is very popular. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, the album is good and and um it is a good album and I tried to listen to a few of their other albums and I can't do it. They're awful. They're terrible. They're like weird R&B kind of fucking they offended me slightly. But um like and she's doing pretentious shit. Like she's got an orchestra in her music video and they she pretending they're not there. I don't like I I very very very rarely watch music videos. Um my mate sent me the music video. That's what I they were like, "Oh, she's fit and good at music." I was like, "Anyway, um so like she would have deliberately set out to create music, right?" And you would argue that music is art. I mean, you're not, but So some people would. Yeah. I mean, some some songs are, but some songs are mass-produced for by teams of 10 people that just want to make money.

>> This this person Rosalia, she she's a she's a music maker that she wants to do music. She has studied music, >> you know. It's not Now, I get I get the distinction. Yeah. In my mind, when you >> didn't study anything, though, right? She's an She seems like she can do opera or some shit. She's obviously trained her voice. She must have cuz her her her voice control is far too but I'm I'm I'm arguing with Arnell's definition like all of those things that that could apply to anyone or no one. Like that doesn't mean that she creates art and someone having those.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not I don't think art is absolute. I think it's it's literally case by case basis. >> I see. So, so if we rewind and we go back to the beginning where we when I my assumption on what art is is completely wrong from before >> um like again I'd never thought about it and it was only stuff in the museum and and and stuff in the museum generally will be art because most of those people have created it and they blah blah blah blah blah from our definition. I'm a little bit loose on or or frustrated by the concept that that that it's like you you can't just accidentally create art. I kind of semi- disagree, but I don't know why. Um >> but you [laughter] you >> Yeah, I think I need I guess I need to Oh, you Well, okay, now I'm more confused. But I need to I need to dis distinguish between art and something beautiful.

>> Right. For me, they kind of been the same thing my whole life. Um, like a chick's face who's really good. There was a girl in an office I used to work with, right? A bloke, well, a girl, and me and my mate would call her face cuz we didn't know her name. And she had a great face, right? The rest of her, but her face was fucking banging, right? Um, and I'd almost argue like her face could be our is how I had it in my head. She's a piece of art. She was a a beautiful thing, right? But >> yeah, it's just a beautiful thing. It's >> I think art is manmade.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> But that's what I mean. My whole life I've never thought that if you understand where I'm going with it. Like like >> Yeah. >> Art was anything beautiful basically. And I think >> I think >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Going back to what I said with I find art being a little bit useless. It's it's not even the same to say that something is like a work of art cuz I could say that about a lot of things that this feels to me like a work of art. But that is the same like artwork. >> That's how we're brought up. >> But it's more or le Yeah. Exactly. And that to me feels again, it's closer to like a nice thing that you say about something and uh um there's more value in that than distinguishing something and saying this thing is art. That doesn't actually mean. I don't know exactly what that's trying to say. What what is implicit in that?

>> It's beautiful though. I think that's the whole point, right? It's like they're so >> they or it or whatever is so >> great that it could be art. You could pass it off as art. >> You know, you could put her in a in a museum and say it was a sculpture and it would be beautiful kind of thing. Um, >> which I think goes for a lot of miniatures as well. [snorts] But then you're full circle again. Back to Arnell's point that I've painted a lot of stuff in my mind in my life and there's [snorts] only a few things that I would kind of think in my own my own definition of them being art. So for example, the Elder project I'm doing, I don't see that as art. I'm trying to recreate heavy metal. Well, ironically, a lot of the heavy metal stuff I don't consider like art. Do you know what I mean? It's like >> I do know what you mean. I think >> they're taking models wholeheartedly agree with that. [laughter] >> No, if you think if you like they're creating models to sell, right? I'm talking about the

>> they serve a purpose. >> Yeah. Whereas the Golden Demon, I would say a lot of that stuff in there, like almost all of it is art, >> but but the the but then you've got some characters and shit that you'd be like that is art more cuz clearly, you know, if you think back through the years, the heavy metal team has produced this piece that are clearly something other than box arts. But the point being, >> yeah, I don't look at that stuff in my cabinet and think that's art. I think it brings me feelings, but then I'm like, that is art.

>> I struggle with the idea of thinking about your own pieces as art. I struggle hard with that. I think the >> the model I'm working on now, which I showed you guys yesterday, because of everything about it, because of how special and weird and different it is, that to me feels like I I could count that as being a work of art. But it that to me says nothing. And I'm not just being like humbled. That says nothing about whether or not it's beautiful. >> That's more like I'm more happy to put it in that category because of what it is and what it's for. And you don't care if it's called art or not. You >> No, no, no. Definitely not.

>> Exactly. You did it for him and and the whole point was >> was doing it. >> Yeah. >> The fact that you call it that doesn't fucking matter. >> But does this mean that your >> It really doesn't >> your definition are now is is based kind of on >> if it's more pretentious, it's not art. Like it's an interesting that this is coming in here to this >> of an allergy to pretentious level. >> Yeah, it feels like but it feels like you're kind of sort of shoehorning in that it can't be pretentious as the main >> No, no, no. Fucking some for example, Interstellar is pretentious as fuck, >> but it's fucking good. I never thought it was pretentious. Interesting >> because some I mean Christopher Noran is pretentious. I think in his movies >> but but it pays off most of the times because he does it in a way that it works. some others are pretentious and I like I'm when I'm watching the movie I'm like fuck me this is just pretentious pretentiousness just for that movies is

a good example the same with as you said with music it's exactly the same argument like you can't you you could absolutely say that all films are art but that would be madness to me especially when you start to cross over from fiction into like documentary into someone's uh I mean a cooking show on TV like all that if if all of that's art, then okay, then art is like the weirdest umbrella term for everything. Art just means stuff that's created. Um, but if none of it's art, then we're kind of excluding a lot of things that have, I think, maybe a lot of artistic uh value.

So it's yeah in that case I I definitely feel like it's a case by case but I'm not I'm not I'm definitely not sure which cases would be art then like which films >> everyone would be fiction was pretentious in a way and that's clearly good >> fiction >> pulp fiction was pretentious. >> Oh pulp fiction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit >> in my mind like the dances that were clearly over the top or blah blah blah like >> but it still works somehow as a piece of art, right?

>> You you can be pretentious and make it work. That's for sure. It's just if you have to >> like if you're pretentious and then you don't deliver >> then it's when >> I [snorts] mean I I would yeah I would say Picasso's evolution of his style was a bit pretentious but in like the best way. Who? >> Picasso. >> Oh, >> if you look at his different like phases and the way his style evolved from >> Well, I think it >> in this particular case, >> in this particular case, I think it's funny >> because he evolved his way of painting in a way that followed his philosophical thought of of >> matter. But is it I mean it can be.

>> I don't mean in a negative way. I think we're we're assuming that pretentious means negative. Yes, it's a little negative. But I mean I think if if someone explained that to me about someone other than Picasso, I would think that's fucking pretentious. >> Well, maybe it's because I'm just imagining him >> like a madman trying to understand the world and and one day realizing that reality is a lot more complex than what you see. and and then trying to represent reality not from your point of view but in the whole >> Yeah. which is a very it's a very fun concept and and actually when you think about it try to imagine painting a 2D in the whole sense of the voluometry like it's fucking nuts as an idea >> I don't know that he did that he what he tried to do what >> kubi yeah so kubism the movement this movement is the representation of of an object but not from the point of view

but as a whole like >> now I'm see I'm seeing it's not possible because we are used to seeing it like this right but objects if you imagine >> a a a bottle a paint of bottle a bottle of paint uh the bottle of paint is not this view it's the whole views it's this view is this view it's the insides as is everything and he wanted to represent everything at once >> sounds like that's I mean that's yeah I guess he was bored with the mundane That's that's why it's fucking weird because he wanted to represent everything and he he did traditional art first. So he was a good painter.

>> So I I don't think it's pretentious in a way that he didn't do it to be cool. He he >> No, no, no. But that's that's again that's your definition of pretentious. I'm I mean I don't have to call it pretentious. But I'm just saying like there are a lot of classical artists that have done things that to me feels like >> you you know you're kind of full of yourself but you create something really incredible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I pretend >> there's a lot of I mean there's a lot of composers from the last 100 years that are incredibly pretentious but I still appreciate the work that they've done. >> Like Philip Glass is crazy pretentious.

>> In fact, I'll tell you who's really pretentious is that Hanzimmer guy. If you I've watched any video with him and he is fucking like full on loves his he could suck his own dick if he could. I'm sure of it. >> You know what? The music from Dunkkirk is fucking pretentious. It's just sounds >> but I think there's a difference. >> Pretentious stuff as well. >> I've not heard it. pretentious in my mind, just to give a definition, is um doing something deliberately knowing that other people will think that's annoying, but still doing it in my mind.

I I know I'm not doing, but like that's what pretentious is. It's like a deliberate way. >> Yeah. They're like like I'm pretentious if I were to say I know that everybody um likes the color blue, right? and they hate the color red and I will force the color red on them because I know they don't like it but I'm going to make them subject to it kind of thing. It's not quite that cuz they're not trying to annoy people. >> Like pretentious in my mind is fuck it. I'm googling it. like the the fucking cucumber on the wall. >> That's pretentious.

>> Narcissism, self-importance. This more like >> Yeah, it's it's wanting to wanting it to be good from this like not good because we all want it to be good. But >> so this is okay. Attempting to impress by >> affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed, right? I think I think all of ours all of our descriptions come up into one good thing. So that's that's how I see it. It's a you're an annoying little shit basically if you're pretentious. You're just a little twat, right? Um and ego is different from that. And having and saying I can produce good m like if I now turned around and said I'm a really good painter, right? That's ego.

But it doesn't have to be a negative thing. It's self-confidence that your ability to do something right, perform. You give me a task and I know I'm good at it. And that's ego does get into a bit negative connotation. Let's just say self-confidence. Um, and and I think that pretentious people actually don't have self-confidence. I almost feel like they're they're going somewhere, you know, trying to cover up their shit with Yeah. attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit. Yeah. It's imagine if if I did a piece that was uh this this figure this I don't know woman that represents um sadness and then there's this man that represents whatever and they are dancing and they are a reflection of each other and then whatever >> this would be pretentious as fuck. And also if you like announced that and you said the key, right? I've finally made something that the miniature art will

remember. I >> I'm now the greatest. And I mean, we kind of have met people in our hobby that are sort of >> a little bit like that. >> Yeah. I have >> But that means it's not >> in the in the category of storytelling in in the contest usually you find a lot of things that >> Yes. >> It's my least favorite category for that reason. It it I I really don't like it because all the things are so empty of of real thought and feeling. Most of the things obviously some some are really good.

>> I get [sighs and gasps] it's it's I mean we're bad mouthing a lot of people here who who enter um the category but some are really good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So get out isn't it very smart. It's by proxy it will be pretentious I feel because you're forced to do an idea. I mean, some of them aren't, right? I I like some of them. It's true. Um, but you're forced to do an idea by by its very definition. You're telling people to make some sort of statement or some sort of um >> Yeah, actually it's a good point. For me, what makes it pretentious is that there is a category for that. And they are doing it for that.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Rather than >> pretentious, just do that piece and don't entertaining. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Um, so in in in itself it is a it I I don't have an issue with it, but

I'm it's not my favorite place to go through basically. I I feel slightly uncomfortable. Um, but fuck, I forgot what I was going to say, but [snorts] I have a a piece in my head since many many years ago that I want to do. I don't know if I will do it, but this is a piece that I for things in my life that happened and I I I have the piece in my head exactly like I know how I want to do it and it's very moving. I don't know if I will be able to even look at it when I when I finish. But uh it's not something that I would care about anything about like I I wouldn't even show it to people or >> it's something that I just I need it was in my head. It's been in my head for like 5 years, four and a half. And it's it's the only thing that would make this piece um exist.

Not everyone else, not contests, not >> you know. >> Well, that in itself you could argue contests are bad because you paint a lot of people paint for contests as I do. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. And you're forced to you're forced to do it. But then Taskmasters is doing the same thing. >> But are bad if you if we talk art, but they are not bad. It's by itself. Like it's fine. It's okay to do it. >> Well, it also goes against the [clears throat] Yeah. So, let's say you you paint that piece that you said, the example of pretentiousness, right?

You've got um this guy reflecting that guy's thing and blah blah blah and uh their feet. Now, if you do all that piece and you put it out there and you don't say anything, right? It's not pretentious cuz it's just a piece. [snorts] But then you get asked those questions in an interview and you have thought about those things, that interview slightly comes across as pretentious even though they're asking you specifically why you did certain choices. It depends on your attitude. >> Yeah, it depends. And also I still I I I still maintain that like being pretentious isn't that bad, but it does. Yeah, I I I agree. It depends on the attitude. You can say all of those things as an explanation and it doesn't if someone thinks like, oh, this is fucking pretentious.

>> That's their opinion. You know, you haven't like done anything wrong. But then again, right, in a weird way, pretentiousness is also on the person listening. Anybody who talks about art ever, okay, is pretentious, >> right? >> Well, might depends to me, sorry. For me, from an outside perspective, when I didn't do art, hearing someone talk about a piece, right, I was kind of like, get over yourself. >> But talking, >> yeah, I mean, I I very rarely listen to artists talking, don't get me wrong.

Right. I'm talking like in on his TV interview or something and they're they're on >> but what I mean is commenting about something is pretentious >> about their own pieces. >> Oh, well you mean artist talking about their own work? >> Yeah. Don't get me wrong, they're being interviewed and they have to give a fucking question an answer. But I've always thought like >> this I've never thought this but I've seen it like people are dying in certain places and you're talking about this piece of art. That to me is complete bullshit because we're not dying like and we're not at war, blah blah blah, whatever. And it's terrible that those things are happening, but we as humans want that extra level. We want to engage our our souls, I said, but you know what I mean?

You want to you want to go to that place. You want to hear music that moves you. And so >> yeah, of course. >> Yeah. >> And it's natural to live your own life. And >> so but I still when I see these artists talk like an if I asked you to explain a piece to me right and your >> not your thought process just be like so I don't know why why did you why did you do this piece what were your choices >> let's let's do it let's do it for real >> okay and see how nonp pretentious you could be all right what's my favorite >> no no I mean I I >> would genuinely answer the question >> yes I just need to Find a piece. Hold on. On our miniatures. What are >> you talking about? You want to talk about the the last the little um >> No, that you won't be that's not a pretentious That's not a pretentious piece though.

>> Here's a pretentious piece. The full body nude. Okay. Now, >> the one you did with Leila. >> Now, that in itself is slightly pretentious. >> Mhm. >> No, no, no, no. An interview wouldn't ask. They wouldn't do that cuz that's I'm leading. >> Just ask my question. Ask my question. So, why did you paint the naked lady? >> First, because I like uh human bodies. I I'm fascinated by human bodies. Uh and I think it's the I feel like I'm in a [laughter] TV show and there's a guy with >> That's what we wanted, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but it's actually it's actually the culmination of of many years of wanting to to paint u bodies and skin. Uh, and and this is the the best canvas I had all these years because it's a canvas that Leila and I did especially considering my own preferences. So yeah, it was it was an exploration actually. It's a just an exercise to be fair because it's an exploration of of a type of skin tone and you know I could do other types of skin of skin tone and I will but I think I'm specialized in in painting light skin tones and this was a perfect canvas to just try to do it the best I could. You know I do. So you avoided you avoided um going into too much like quote unquote gayness if that makes sense to make it pretentious.

>> Gayness. >> Yeah. Gayness. And I don't mean homosexuality here >> when I say gayness. >> Um >> like self-reverence too much like and that >> No, but that's what I'm saying. >> That's why I'm saying you avoided any of that when you spoke. >> Why call it gay? You can. We just talked about being pretentious for 20 minutes. >> Gayness is like you stub your toe and it hurts and you shout that's gay. >> That's that's what I mean by >> um gayness. So >> yeah, you avoided some uh references to your own artistic uh brilliance.

>> Yeah, but you said yeah, it didn't it didn't come across that way because you weren't boastful. But this this this for me this is truly this is an exercise of of exploration >> of having a good a good canvas >> and trying to do the best you can and and trying to explore a a skin. I've never used these colors by painting a skin. I used basically grays and you know browns and and greens. Uh and I wanted to to try that and I did. For me it's not even it's not even a a a full piece. It's just a study. It's literally a study and I called it a study because it's literally that, you know. So, what's I think what I'm learning here is is don't give yourself compliments and then it's not pretentious. Don't say how hard it was.

>> Giving yourself confidence is a good clue. >> Yeah. No, but you see these these maybe maybe they get led, but like film stars, movie like music blah blah blah, they'll talk about like the they must get asked it. if you ask about what challenges, what was really hard and stuff and then you would have to answer and say, but but as soon as you start putting that veneer on there, I I guess we've digressed here, but yeah, these people could do it. You can answer things without being pretentious. Maybe you have to have pretentiousness built into you to be able to, you know, uh uh like we said, what is it? It's not the ego, but it's the other thing.

>> Whatever. Yeah, >> I don't remember. [laughter] I know Kus Kus you're well I was going to say you're born with it but [snorts] no um but obviously in this in this situation um yeah you're right we do need to talk about it more or maybe it's an unanswerable question it is an answer unanswerable >> it's personal >> it's personal yeah and if if uh if anyone wants to contribute in the discord then uh I mean don't like everything's been said. [laughter] >> I I you'll need voice notes if you're going to if they're if anybody wants to partake. Open a Discord on your phone and then you can do voice notes. You can't do it on the uh desktop.

>> Yeah. And I'm sure art is different from for everyone like Yeah. I I I don't know where I we talked about art and someone told me no art is something and I was like how about okay >> but I I would I would not to just like go over the whole conversation again. I would challenge anyone if you think that the hobby that we do, miniature painting in general, is art, then have a think about what isn't if that because that to me is a quite a a big um spectrum of stuff. So like >> exactly I would be curious to hear if if what we do if most of it or all of it is art.

>> Well, that is all >> that was our question, right? So let's try and answer it as best we can. Is the miniature world art? And in my mind, like as soon as you add a backdrop to it and it's a person, it becomes this weird it's trying to be art thing, if you understand what I mean. I'm not saying backdrops are bad or good. And >> yeah, but you can easily have you could easily have um pieces that are good uh without trying to be art, if that makes sense. You can see a piece and it's not trying like like the heavy metal team paintings. I fucking love them. Clearly, I'm trying to recreate them, right? But I wouldn't have like necessarily said they're art. But then again, by us even giving a definition to art in a way is pretentious in some way. Like, do you know what I mean?

>> We can talk about stuff. >> Yeah, I know. Just trying to play. >> Everyone's Everyone's entitled to that definition. I think that's first of all, it's like there's no We can gatekeep the art itself, but not who gets to have a say in it. Yeah. So if miniature art I think some of it's art basically. >> Yeah. I think it has potential the the hobby and the >> some of it. >> Yeah. What we do has potential to create art >> in a really weird it's >> it's craftsmanship in in a lot of cases and in other it becomes art. Well, a diarama lends itself much more to being art in my opinion um than a standalone uh figure with no context as it were and stuff that to me feels much more like an illustration if I can say that than it does like art. Um whereas >> interesting >> when as soon as you add in more variables of expression then I feel like it becomes more arty. Um, like I don't like historical. I find it boring as

fuck. >> But yeah, go on. >> I I It's a good point. Sorry. What? What did you say? You find what? Boring. >> Historical. >> Historical. >> Oh, historical. Yes. >> If you if you do a ship or a or a plane or a car, a model, a model car or, you know, one of those tamila. What is that art? And what differentiates this from having a figure straight out of the box, putting it in the plinth and painting it like just rendering it. It's the same. It's literally the same. >> Yeah. >> Uh because you are just rendering a material.

>> So if you you do you consider making a a model plane or a car or anything >> just as art to think about this as art. >> Yeah. But in my mind, right, basically. Yeah. Yep. I agree. >> Yeah. Or a sand castle. I mean, I I again, I am curious to hear what other people think about this because it's not I think a lot of people will be quick to say one or the other and I I'm not really ready to agree with either. So, I'm kind of interesting to see what people think.

>> Um and then the other stuff in in the the diuramas. >> Yeah, I think I said that actually. The diuramas to me are more they lend themselves even if they're not great, I still feel a lot more emotion put into them because there's so many things that they've had to do to get there. >> You know what I mean? >> Um, and I guess like I need to remind myself that you can create pieces without it being art. I'm not here to create art though. I don't actually care about the definition of art. I just want it to be something that I'm enjoying.

I mean, if you if you are here just to create art, >> you'll have a hard time. >> I don't know. I don't think I've ever spoken to a a miniature painter who says they're trying to create art, >> haven't you? >> I don't not I don't >> I think we probably know a few. Yeah, I think we know a few. >> All right, tell me off air then. Fine. Um, I I I so vaguely remember having an argument with not me, but the argument took place in one of the many cars or trips or bars around events where someone was saying that we have to be doing art. Everything we're doing is art and then someone else saying no. So, it's a com it's a question that comes up a lot. Is miniature painting art?

>> Yeah. Yeah. and and people is very strongly on one side or the other >> and and you you will see that people will will react like >> viscerally >> their opinion. Yeah.

>> Violently strong. Yeah. We will have a riot probably. >> It's funny. I'd never thought about it. I'm glad you uh brought this up. Well, we are 1 hour 45 minutes in. >> Do you want me to throw you some sayings to lighten the mood? >> Lay it on me. >> Okay. Well, you need to get a jingle for this the next time we're going to do it or now or we have no idea where we are in the show. >> It was It was He I think he had the jingle, Jamie. >> Just sing a little tune. Just sing a little merry tune.

>> I don't even know what to say. >> But what? Wait, hold on. What? So, we got [snorts] Sorry, Martin. It's just on your face. You won't be able to see this, but yeah, you got this. >> Doc, doc, >> you got to give us some good news. That's the things you don't want to hear segment. Um, you've got >> someone else's face. Weird. >> Oh, that's just okay. [laughter] >> Uh, no. I got nothing. I got nothing. >> Well, it's okay. >> Yeah, >> it's just we should have another language. Whatever. This was the single, by the way. Um, so I have a few.

Obviously, I don't need to say all of them. I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. But we'll go quickly through them. Uh, and you can try to try to >> Are you going to translate into English, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to say it in English and you'll try to guess what what this means. [snorts] Yeah. So, the first one is >> This is my first contestant. This is my first show that I can beat Martin cuz I'm always >> Yeah. Ah, right. And I'm I'm getting scores. So, yeah. Okay. >> Good. [laughter] Um, the first It's blowing and making bottles.

>> Bottles. >> Bottles. >> It's going for like a fart. >> It's blowing and making bottles. >> Yeah. >> Blowing and making bottles. >> Is it Is it a fart? Just is not a fart >> in in Catalan is is buff. Yes. >> So, am I wrong? >> Yeah. Jamie's trying to give an answer and he wants to know if he's right. >> What? What did you say? >> Fox. No. No. No. Okay. I think it's a strong wind. >> No, >> it's a lot less literal. >> Say that again. Then >> it's some >> It's blowing and making bottles.

>> Someone lying. >> Something to do with with fire with fire. >> It's less natural. >> And you It's Yeah, it's >> Yeah. Okay. So, it can mean literally anything. Lime was a good guess. Making bottles. Is it when you're late? >> Who knows? >> Guess. It's a good guess, but it's but no, it's not. >> Unlucky Martin, mate. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so it means when something is easy, >> it's blow. Oh, when you're blowing and making bottles >> because you are blowing glass and making glass.

>> But that's really hard to do. >> Well, that's what we say when when >> Catalan, >> wherever it is. So, the next one is a bit weirder. >> Weirder. Okay. Finally. Yeah. >> Doing the pitch. >> Doing the what? >> Pitch. >> The pitch. >> Pitch. >> Pitch. >> Pitch with P >> like football pitch. >> Doing the pitch >> or pitching to somebody as in the fruit. The the pitch. >> Oh, peach. Peach. >> Peach.

>> No offense. Now, when I peach, >> right? Doing the peach. >> Which which in say in Catalan fel. [laughter] >> Would that make a difference? M. Um. Peach. No, I was curious what peach is in Catalan. >> I think it's doggy. So, making love to a woman from behind. >> What the peach? >> A peach. An ass, right? >> Oh, it's anal. >> Peach is uh doing the peach. Doing the peach. Um, >> okay. It's not [snorts] anal. >> Shaving. [laughter] >> Doing the peach.

>> Well, you have to tell me when when you're done yet. >> Eating. Is it just eat fruit? No. No one has a saying but eat fruit. [laughter] >> Literally eating terrible. Eating a peach. Is it >> Is it when you're uh doing the peach? >> Choking? Is it when you >> choke cuz you've got too much in your mouth? >> Um, >> this one has nothing to do with shaving a shaving a sheep. >> Like I thought I actually guessed that it was shaving. I thought that was a I thought that might have been shaving. No double on the beach. No.

>> Yeah. >> Peach face. Uh >> dropping money down a drain or something like losing. >> No, that's that's good. It could be that. Yeah. Maybe it's it's when you shut the fuck up. >> No, I'll just tell you that. >> Okay. >> It's embarrassing yourself or uh just >> I never I never would have ever guessed that like ever. [laughter] >> I know. Anything. I think it's to do with No, I think it's to do with your ass. Your ass is your peach and then your trousers fall down when you're in a restaurant or something.

>> Yeah, you you answer twice things that are related to your ass. So, I'm saying >> a peach is an ass. >> Well, yeah, but >> Right. Carry on. A lot of a lot of >> that it's a bit simpler. So, you may you may get >> that one was terrible. >> Yeah. Um, sweating bacon. Sweating bacon. It's when you're Oh, fuck. It's when you smell. >> No, sweating bacon surely would is it? Well, sweating like a pig means you're you're worried about something. So, sweating bacon would normally mean like you're you're sweating a shitload, right? You're you're you're not literally >> Oh, um I think Yeah, I think Jamie's right.

It is when you're >> looking forward to something. Yeah. >> No, it's uh when you are making a lot of effort for something and you are very tired >> and you're very >> of the effort or you were literally tired like you >> and obvious obviously sweating like you are like physically sweating. >> So So this one is is literal but the fucking peach one >> it's almost literal. Jesus Christ. >> Sweating bacon. Yeah, that's pretty good though. It's like when you're you're sweating profusely. But we we probably overthought that one. >> Yeah, because I changed a lot.

>> One was complete fucking madness. >> I can give you another that is madness. >> Embarrassing yourself is doing the peach. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead. Splitting pears. >> That's the same as splitting hairs. You're you're arguing over the same thing. >> That sound splitting pairs. pears as the fruit as well. >> Yeah. Is it is it making love to a twin sister and then making love to the other one? >> That's also uh buttreated. I just want to say everything Jamie answers is somehow related to but >> sex or >> Well, it's a pair and the best women have pear-shaped bodies, right? So, >> I'm seeing a pattern in your image. You know, if if you if we had this thing with the with the ink shapes, >> right? Everything's just a >> Everything would be naked woman. Just >> I wonder if Chachi I mean um Lionel could come up with something like that.

Actually >> in in Catalan is part there's a lot of good alliteration with these sayings. They sound very like rhyas. Uh that means to um >> what's this? What is the >> when you're a cheapkate when you're uh >> to splitting peach uh splitting pairs? >> What the fuck? >> Why has it got anything to do with a pair? [clears throat] >> Maybe splitting is not the best word, but it's it's giving you a clue.

>> Splitting is like you go down the middle. It goes >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> with a pair. So, um >> it's overkill. Maybe maybe like going too far. The pair is not too important. >> Yeah. Splitting something that's maybe good. >> Someone says you're bored and then you go you're a fucking piece of shit. You and then you go really hard into like what's wrong with them? >> No. >> Ending a relationship. >> Ending a relationship.

>> Yeah. >> Why is it so like brutal? Like >> what's this fixation with fruit? >> Well, yeah. [laughter] Well, that's actually a lot of of food in the in the >> I can imagine. We've already had bacon, pears, and peaches. I'd like all three of those on a plate right now. >> I have another one which with with food. Uh dreaming tunas. >> Dreaming tunas. [laughter] >> That's mental. Oh, that is fully mental. It >> That's when you're uh expecting too much.

Good guess. Good guess. It's not exactly, but you're it's it's pretty close. Actually, >> you might have won this one. >> So, not expecting too much, but when you're like overreaching, wishing for too much, hoping for too much. No, >> actually, yes, you could say that it it's that >> mine was mostly around sex. So, something to do with fucking tuna. >> No, it was that tun like tuna are big and chunky >> and you're dreaming of them. So, it's like you can get whatever you're dreaming of like Yeah, that's true.

[laughter] >> No, it's it's being overly optimistic. Uh something that's that's unattainable and I'm >> right. So, not expecting too much but hoping for too much. I mean if if if you are seeing someone that is expecting too much you would say to him you are dreaming tunas. So you are um um sumatas which is of course >> which is weird but that's fine. >> And then we have another one with food related item.

>> Did you Google like all food related? Are they all just >> No, right. >> I I only have I have I have three any of this or did you just think of them off the top of your head? I I thought about them. They are very common >> like like really common. >> I I have three three more and two of them are food related and the other one is not. Um this one is you drank oil. >> Oil. >> Oil. >> That's literally something Spanish people do though. That's just when you've had a nice >> I think it's black oil like tar, isn't it? I have my I had in my head >> oil I I always imagine olive oil but I don't know.

>> Jesus black oil spilled. Yeah. >> Oh wait Spanish because in in in Spanish when we Catalan we don't say oil >> for that oil I mean oli which is the word >> is just >> olive oil. >> Olive oil. >> Some in Spain. >> Would you get it from Italy? >> What? >> Olive oil. We are the the best producer in the world of olive oil. [laughter] No, Italy is You don't think Spain Spain does it as well, do you? Fair enough. >> Spain does Spain actually does 50% of the whole world produce. U >> Why does no one know that? That's crazy.

>> Everyone thinks it comes from Italy. Facts. >> Everyone thinks it all comes from Italy and Greece also. >> Well, they say that Italy >> Italy has a very good marketing campaign about their food. Well, they're winning Spanish then. Yeah. It's like marketing. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Their marketing campaign is making really good food. It's obviously working. >> So, Oh, wait. In a big way. Okay. Yeah. So, you drank oil. >> You drank oil. >> You drank oil. Is uh >> you ate >> as in something you tell someone that they drank oil.

>> Yeah. It's like, oh, you drank oil. >> Yeah. You >> That's when you're full of shit. That's when you're you're lying. Uh, I think it's like I think it's like when you you you got karma back and it was like you went and pissed on someone's car and then they shat on your car. >> No, it's when you had a really it's when you it's when you've been really lucky and >> you Jamie is not far off. It's not exactly that, but it could it could apply in that situation. >> Like you were tricked. >> No, >> you got egg on your face is what I think it is. It's similar to that.

>> Yeah. It's when it's it's it's the same as saying you are dead like you are fucked if you drank oil. >> Yeah. I mean that would mean you can't drink oil for cars for example. >> Yeah. We need to define Exactly. Cuz if you drank >> that would that would really >> but no no because in in Catalan it's >> drink oil and >> but then that makes no I mean I drink oil all the time. >> Any of them make sense. >> True. I mean having anger on your face re you really would feel stupid to be honest if there was just a fucking egg here and you were walking down the street >> like oh egg on my face you'd be like man but the good things is that these make no sense whatsoever I >> agree unlike the peach one right >> yeah uh and then the last two to look for three feet on the cat [gasps] is this one cat >> shit to look for three feet on the cat as opposed to four.

Weird. >> Sorry, my doorbell was ringing with my kids. Um, to look for feet on your oil. What? On your >> 3 feet on the on the cat. >> Three feet on the cat. It's like you're nearly dead. >> It's like, >> no, that's the other one. No. >> Oh, no. No. Like you're 90 years old and you you're No. Three feet on the cat. It's like a threesome. 3 on the cat? >> No. [laughter] >> Is it uh being overly cautious?

>> No. >> Is it like you're snuggled up in bed and you're really cozy? >> No. It's over over complicating things >> like you are doing now. >> Just too many things in the too many people helping out. >> Three feet on the cat in because you can look looking for three. I don't understand it. I don't even understand. >> I know. I didn't I don't either. It's the cat don't have feet and they have four paws. So they have four. >> No, but it's somebody else on the cat.

The cat is pinned down on the floor and there's three feet on top of him pushing him down. >> Oh, like three like two people standing on a cat. >> I mean, >> it's looking for those feet. Yeah, I don't think >> it's like an eagle coming in and to look for three feet on the cat. No, it's like if the cat has three feet somewhere. >> I see. I see. >> And you have to find the three feet. >> Looking for three feet in a cat. Oh, so something uh >> imposs it's like an impossible.

>> No, it's like it's like you are over complicating things. >> Oh, is that what it means? >> That's what it means. >> Oh, fucking hell. I just thought you l you were telling us. >> No, no, no, no, no. >> So, we were looking for three feet in the cat. Okay. Exactly. And I guess that works because >> every cat has four, so you will always find three. >> Yes. I don't know. Well, they don't have feet, so they have paws. >> I've got we've got some good English. >> And the last one, which probably you have already uh heard it. Having bad milk.

>> It's when you the condom is off. It's >> um >> having bad milk is uh Yeah, that's when you're impotent. >> That would have been a good one. I mean, it's obviously >> blank. [laughter] No, no, it's not that. >> Having bad Is it Is it like bad blood when there's a feud? >> Uh, no, but it's close. >> When someone is pissed off. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Is is Yeah. Being pissed off. >> You didn't let me answer mine because that's exactly what I was going to say.

So, it's tied. >> No, cuz you won the first one. >> You won another one. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Did I? >> And I wasn't going to say. >> Yeah, you said one. Yeah. I don't remember which one, but >> you did win for sure. For sure. >> Well done. Should we do one with Swedish sayings next time? >> Definitely. >> Yeah. The fact that there are all these

fucking weird sayings, it's hilarious. Um, right. I need to go, which means we are going to finish with Gropbusters. We had a lot more planned sadly, but we won't get it. Oh, last week's Grotbusters. Do you have your answers ready? >> Judging by the bright light on my face. Yes, I do. >> Shit. >> Ah, >> yeah. Okay. So, we have >> uh No, actually, I I don't think I do. I'm No, I'm fucked in this round. >> Well, I'll quickly go. Okay, hold on. >> I I thought about them and I I couldn't. >> I KNOW. I think No, I don't.

>> Of course, the Jingle Four, the world famous Cropbusters. Scropbusters for anybody who doesn't know is basically I give you a cryptic clue uh and an initials and they are basically based in 40k and uh the classic is that you have a jean GS right and then I say he's stolen your jeans and then that would be jean stealer okay so last week the first clue was wk okay and the clue was saw this tall skinny bloke at the bus stop he barely made a sound when He walked past W K.

>> Yeah, I think you said Wie. Fine then. I've given you some more info. >> No, this is W for the first, then W K, and then >> No, WH. >> Wasn't it WH? >> WH was the second one. Look, I've just That's the fucking first clue. Okay. And it is It is correct. >> Yeah. >> Um, that gave me a clue to be fair. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Great night. Yeah, you have to wait for our now. But yes, race night. >> No, I mean yes, we both trust our now as far as I can throw. Right. Um WH dog sprinted around the park like he was at war.

>> I think I may have this one. >> Yeah, I I mean I I >> Do you want to go first or now? >> 3 2 1 Say at the same time. 3 2 1 go. Warhound. >> Martin went quiet, but I think he said it as well. >> Yeah, I couldn't hear that again either. >> The the microphone is silencing you right in the very moment. >> Specifically when he needs to give an answer. Sure. >> He's like, "Is that what you said or now?" >> Oh, my mic's on broken. >> What? Oh, yeah. Warhound. That's what I said.

>> Right. So, that's two all [sighs] H I think. Did I give you two initials or one? >> Yeah, just one >> cuz I made the same mistake I would have. Right. The kid finger blasted her to hell. >> Finger blast >> there. I can hear you. >> Fucking clue. >> You want a clue, both of you, or do you know mine? >> I I do want a clue. Mine. >> Let me think. 5 seconds. H. >> No, no, I do.

>> Fire. >> Literally. It's very rare do I put the actual words of what they are in the sentence, but they are literally in that sentence. >> The kid finger blasted her to hell. >> Hell blasters. >> You didn't give on out any time, but yes. I mean, I wasn't going there, but helpless. >> Maybe you were, but I thought a second. >> I'm going to see. The problem is if we both It's >> like eBay bids. >> If we wait for each other, like, how do we win? >> We just just the other weeks when Arnell's got no idea.

>> I think that we both got all three of those. >> Three for three. And I did have um some entries >> and I was looking for the words blaster and hell, >> but I [snorts] was literally reading it. >> Yeah. >> But so everyone who who did send in, I'm sorry. I know. Um, you guys did Paul and etc. But my wife is banging on the door with the kid. Um, and she knows I'm recording the podcast, but she did ask me, "Have you finished work? Can you leave work?" She said 10 15 minutes ago. Little does she know. Right. This week's I think one is very very difficult.

>> Well, one thing one thing is that next week we will release uh an episode an a special episode for Christmas with Albert. So we will not be able to answer them. >> Indeed, you will have a two week lead time potentially two and a half on these. >> The the last episode of the season season which will be recorded the first or second of January. >> Yeah, we will do a wrap-up and the would be the season finale. So >> you have to tune in for that. We're going to show all the uh incredible work we've done on the >> Taskmasters.

>> Taskmasters. Yeah, >> we will talk about Revel Moon as well. Fuck no. [snorts] We're finally going to catch up on Rebel Moon. >> I mean, if you watch over Christmas, we actually could. >> By the way, I watched the second one. Oh shit. It's better than the first one. >> It's coming, guys. Season 4 full Rebel Moon episode. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Um, okay. So, R is the initial for Roger. I tried to kiss her, but she said I disgusted her. Okay. [laughter] Okay. NM November Mike.

Oh, I nearly read the wrong one. Army was marching past and someone brought a speaker and ruined the whole thing. >> Okay. [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> VS Victor. I nearly said the word of the next one. Um, Sierra, right? [snorts] He made a shield out of cardboard and kept shouting through it, "You can't hurt me." >> But it's it's made of VS. >> Okay.

>> Mhm. [clears throat] [sighs] >> Okay. >> 2 hours 8 minutes. That show was >> was a good one. I think >> I think that show I know we're still on air but might have been complete shit because of the disorientatedness that we experienced while going through what is art but um the problem is our shit is still better than get good so it >> of uh >> maybe but do you know what I mean our bar is so high that the competition it doesn't even when we do a shit episode it's better than get good so it's it's it's it's irrelevant that it's a moot point. I don't even need to say that our episode cuz it will always be better than the shit that they produce over there. Okay. Um >> Yeah. You're welcome to all our listeners.

>> Yeah. Well, all of them. >> We should I mean >> we should do a crossover. I I'll I'll say it out here live >> if they >> we should do a crossover. >> I don't think our listeners are clever enough to have made it past eight uh two hours to be honest with you. Look, the six listeners we do have maybe seven because of we've got more popular recently. Um, their IQ is low. Okay. And do you know how I know their IQ is low? >> Cuz they're listening because they listen to us. >> Of course, >> we're not getting anything for free. We can't spell it out more. Okay. That we want free shit and we're not getting free shit. So, it's like >> usually you have to wait for people to become sellouts and you have to argue your point and you have to >> We're already sold out, right? Yeah.

>> We're completely in. You don't even we we will do it and that's so that's how I know our listeners >> anything [snorts] >> we have a discord >> I didn't know we were going to end