Eavy Metal Painting vs F*ck Smoothness

Mini Matters, a miniature painting podcast. >> Welcome to episode 3, season 4, January the 29th of Jan December 2026. I forgot how much. >> January 29th or December. >> I am way too saturated, aren't I? Welcome, guys. Um, let's get into it. Let's get into the thick of it because I know that people have they want a tight ship. My Right. My lips are purple. But I do have a lot of thought of the days and they're banging. Okay. I've actually got to seven thought of the days now.

We have a great meat of it planned. Fantastic. The best meat of it with No, it's interesting. It's about what's it about. [laughter] >> Or styles or something like that. I don't remember exactly. >> Oh, we're doing that. >> Yeah, Martin. We're doing it, baby. >> Okay. We're shing. We're finally going to have it out. The final the >> the I don't know what to call it. Um some of the feedback we've had for the podcast is that we we we jump around topics too much. Okay.

>> I don't >> I don't say that at all. >> I I I mean I do what feels good. Now to counter that, I'm going to say I don't know I'm doing it. But we we we appreciate the feedback. We want more of that feedback so we know how to improve on it if it is an issue. But I don't know if it is. But possibly have a think. Have a think. You can I just can't get ahead past my lips being like this. >> But you can't see now you can't see it.

>> As far as we as far as we can see. You're just a ghost. >> Gray. Yeah. >> It's basically I mean I'm happy I got it to this far anyway. Um okay. So what do we actually have planned on the show? We have me, Martin, and are now on the show. That's first point. [snorts] >> We should we should >> finally >> update our task masters because we haven't in a while. >> Yeah, >> a great idea. So task masters, this month's task masters is two models on a single base. That is the task masters, but it's uh end of uh February, we will complete that. Then we have the meat of it, which is styles. And I guess it's not a a headto-head, is it? It's more like we're going to discuss the styles that we like, the merits and the um negatives, I guess, of each.

>> I think it's just >> Yeah, I don't think it's a negative positive thing. Yeah, I agree because I don't think there's a right or wrong way. >> I don't think there can be in in in said art. >> Um, faction feud. We have sent the you two are not allowed to look at that document. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, I haven't. Good. And we are asking for people to give us the next faction few. So we do not have a faction few today. I'm sorry to say, but you are firmly in the lead with one point now. So well played on that one. Um yeah, thought of the day. We got would you rather and then of course we've got Dr.

Love Brush. We've got lots of >> Would you rather is on track? >> Got to you got to you got to cycle. It's like it's like a relationship, you know, when you're married. You just have to keep it fresh. >> That's not right. Um so I think that's it. I mean, we've we've I tell you what we did, okay, for our planning this episode. Half an hour getting my camera. >> Half an hour early. It felt like 3 hours. [laughter] >> It probably did. >> Most of this day, really. >> And we have >> We could have spent that time thinking about what we wanted to talk about in this episode, though. To be fair, that was just you doing stuff and then us sitting here >> looking at me. Yeah. I mean, and rightly so. I guess if you if you can't look right, look, I'll give the guys I'll give the viewers what you and I now see.

That's what they see. By the way, you obviously cannot see, but I've just turned off all my filters. And now I've managed to get them looking like this. >> But I'm struggling to get my lips not looking like, you know, and then I look dead. Maybe that's a natural. You guys can't see. Anyway, so if anybody was complaining that we don't we're not articulate and on point in this show, I'll I'll just give you the last four minutes and say I disagree. >> So, what do you want to start with? What do you want to go? >> Do we have Do we have any news this week?

>> Great start. That's a really good idea. Do you know what? Let's start. No, let's start the episode again. Not really. I'm not going to hit record, but this is this is I just want to see if I can do it. All right. >> So, so you are going to start. >> I'm going to leave I'm going to leave that for Okay. >> But I'm going to like this is model professional. Okay. This is this is the game face. Okay. You ready? [clears throat] Hold on. always. >> Welcome everybody. Sorry. Welcome everybody. Episode three of the brand new Mini Matters season 4 joined by me of course are now and Martin. Um and I realize you have no I've nearly lost it.

Now [laughter] today we have a great episode planned. We've got the meat of it which is styles and where they're from and what they mean to us. Okay. And how they conflict and what the benefits blah blah blah. Would you rather? We have taskmasters updates. Taskmaster, if you don't know, is I'm bored. I'm already bored. Do you know what I mean? >> I'm bored, too. I'm bored, too. Yeah. >> It's just like deal with those four. >> I really did check out there just for a few seconds. That's what I was thinking about. So, I'm completely >> It's just not It's just not engaging. All right, last one. Last one. I got the another quick one. Just a quick welcome episode 3 season 4.

>> Um, we've got Taskmasters, would you rather? Uh, thought of the day. fucking a meat of it and then we can just go it and that's that's the new intro. All right. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Good. >> But next episode we do that. >> Sure. >> Good. >> Definitely next episode is going to be like a whole other game. >> I did do a lot of work during the week. Um set up my Steam Deck to now include Oh, of course it's manual focus. This is how I >> Stream Deck or Steam Deck? It's a Steam Deck, right?

>> It's a stream deck. Oh, basically I can look I can pause. I can mute fuck me and then I can talk. Right. It's I've got all the shortcuts here. No one needs to know. No one cares. >> Nope. >> I'm excited. >> That's going in the episode. That's is that part of the news. >> This is This is pretty. >> Yeah, completely. I mean, >> right, [laughter] let's go. Let's go. >> What an attempt though. >> Taskmasters update. He tried too hard and then he had to go on the other opposite. That's exactly what it is.

Yeah. >> But did you guys actually do any work on your task masters then? >> I did. I did. >> I've done a lot actually. I'm nearly finished. >> About you, mate. [laughter] >> I'm not that far ahead yet. >> Have you thought about what you'll do?

>> Yeah. >> Okay, that's enough. >> I've got a fantastic idea. So, honestly, I've hit a bit of a roadblock with mine if if we're being honest. >> No. Oh, no. Calm down. It's not that bad. Right. Look, >> started building it. I Did you Didn't you even start painting it? >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> I haven't painted the models. They're not undercoated. I've started the base. It's the best base I've ever done by a factor of maybe a hundred. And that's like >> probably real because I've tried a bass once before I tried anyway. I have learned stuff in these five years without doing anything. I think is is is is the answer. But I now I've identified it. I did uh yesterday evening I think I've got it.

But I have I have been crippled by two sides. Fear again. It's boring. It is boring. I will admit it's boring. But I'm going to go there. of of ruining the perfect base that I've done. >> So, I've done this perfect base. I mean, relative to what I can do, and now I'm scared to even So, I've undercoated it yellow. And I know I know what I'm going to do. I'm just going to try and do it. I'm just going to fucking paint it. But I I've got this idea in my head, and now I'm scared of putting it on the model.

>> Okay. And that's it. That's it. I know the solution now. I know the answer. >> This is not something you want to talk through. You want to just uh >> Well, isn't the answer the answer is just do it. >> It is. Yeah, >> ultimately, but there's a few steps in between, I guess. >> I don't think there's a I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for advice. The the >> it's just that if you if you go like, I have no idea what to do here. Can someone tell me what to do? >> You need to like involve yourself. But if it's just like, you know, if you want to pitch ideas you've got, >> great.

>> I know. Exactly. It's a sand base, right? So, it's it's going to be like a relatively saturated, not saturated sand base. >> Um on a on there just on like some rocks that are for some reason sandy. >> Some alien planet, let's say. Um, but what it is is a fucking you've got homework to do. You clean the whole house. You've got um, you know, you need to do something, so you put it off for two weeks. That's basically where I'm at now. And, and the issue is I don't know how to resolve it, which is why I'm procrastinating. So, I'm doing I'm doing backgrounds for Mini Matters.

I'm doing I'm looking at you YouTube analytics like five times a day rather than just sitting down. I've I've I've organized all of my magic cards now into into army like whatever their colors there what I don't know what they are >> colors >> right I'm doing everything I can possibly and and to to not do this thing cuz I don't know how to do this thing I gave our now the example right at work when I get a task we get these things called tickets right and the t tickets normally have um acceptance criteria in there so it's like here's the problem and here's what we need fixed And if that's poorly hashed out, that will take me like five times as long to do the ticket because I have to actively do something that I don't know how to do.

So I have to go find the person, find the problem. Whereas if it's written down, I can just go, "Right, Bosch, I know how to do it. Even if it's challenging, I can do it." And that's what I've got with this painting right now. And the realization came when I was I I basically got an extreme boner to do Magic because Arnau and I played Magic two, three days ago and we did a building of a deck, right? And it was something we' only played two games, but it was something that I was like marginally worried about doing because I knew I wouldn't know. Not worried is not the right word. I'm not like sitting there covered in like sweat worrying, but it's like it's enough to make me switch off from that thing.

>> So I don't know how to resolve how to build magic decks. We did it and now it's unlocked it and now I've got this huge well of excitement to play again because I'm able to do this thing. So with painting I don't know how to do this thing. But the irony is in painting you never know how to do something unless you do it yourself. And that's [clears throat] kind of not where I want to. I'm bored of doing the stuff I know how to do. >> And there's for example you there's two things that I want to say. if you have um your base in a too higher regard, like you just think it's too too good and you don't want to mess it up. If I if I criticize it, does it help or does it do the opposite? So, does it um make you not want to work on it because it's not what you expected or would it lower the expectations and then So, I don't know.

and then it you can say it. >> So there's two sides of that. There's one where I've done it and I'm I'm after feedback or you can critique me and that is motivating. >> Um >> the I don't think there's much demotivation. But right now the base I'm just totally happy with the bass, but I've not applied paint. So you can you could critique the bass and it wouldn't really change stuff either way cuz even if you say it's not a perfect bass or how to improve it, that's not the part that I'm struggling with >> if that [clears throat] makes sense.

Like you Yes. I'll I'll take that VBO on board and I'll still be really happy with the bass if that makes sense. >> No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and the and the next part is so this is why I was saying the solution in my head and oh sorry the one more thing I realized that I why am I scared of fucking it up because of what everyone else will think or because I'm scared that I can't recreate it and I think the answer was I'm scared to fuck it up to show people that it's shit which was a horrible realization cuz I didn't think I was influenced by outside sources cuz cuz if I'm never going to show anybody this model and I do a shit base and I just I'll just throw it in a drawer. I don't care. I was just looking to see if I have a drawer to throw it in, which is weird to do. So, like I think it means I am influenced sadly by expectations, having never thought I was.

>> I always thought you were, but just because it's natural. Yeah, it's natural. It's very natural. But it's >> impossible not to be. M >> I mean even saying it out loud now other than my actions and what's happened I would still disagree with the with it but I know it to be true if that makes sense. So like when I'm able to put >> well when I'm able to put my logic hat on I can overrule this thing but if I don't consciously I'll give you a story interesting completely dissected. No it's too too feedback means we have to keep on point. So yeah I'm able to logically tell myself don't care what other people think and and cuz I it's not like I I I base my um am I a good person? am I good at painting or anything on people's feedback, right? I know already the strengths and weaknesses I have and stuff. So, I'm not scared of of their opinion of me, which is really weird, if that makes sense.

I'm scared that they h I don't match my own expectations and then by showing other people it valid like that's it. It's the line in the sand maybe. >> Wouldn't wouldn't it help? Like this is just pure speculation but because I I don't have enough information I guess but wouldn't it help to lower your own view of yourself on the public? So for example um I think or I I I can think that when you have you're afraid to show something is because you don't you don't think that people will match the view that they have with you with the piece that you did. Right? So if the piece is lower than your the image you have on the on the collective then is when you are oh shit I'm doing less than what people expects me to do.

But what you have to do is lower this and say I'm absolute shit. I have no fucking clue what I'm doing. being honest with the with the world and with yourself and saying [clears throat] >> this will do like end up like shit because how could I could it not it's the first time I do it um and it's a way of of acce accepting that you are an oop and you you have to go through that phase of

>> you ask oh now or now do you ever You you surely have an idea of what other people think of your of you as a painter. >> You're not oblivious to that. >> I don't know. Yeah. But yeah, I guess. >> Yeah. So, does that affect you then? >> I think so. Yeah. I don't think >> it affects me. I don't think it's possible. >> The stuff attached to like my name and my my career and whatever else that affects me hugely like because it's a literal expectation. It isn't just a sense of it. It's literally what people expect of me.

>> You think that affects you? >> Absolutely. I don't think it's possible to to not be pressured um by and and the more you the more you are in the industry and the more you work and and the more you you achieve, the more you get the bar up, right? And >> and that bar is fucking >> Yeah. And it's it's awful. But you were saying to lower the the expectations of everyone else or your perception of everyone else's perception of you and then that way >> I do this I do this constantly.

>> You do? >> Absolutely. Every time I when I when I when I don't know how to do something, I say it honestly like I have no clue what I'm doing or uh I I [clears throat] literally I don't have maybe I went uh to the opposite side too much in that sense and and that's why I am not happy with any of my business because I went too far. Maybe I don't know.

But it's not like I try to diminish my own work so I have less pressure maybe. But I I try to be um I don't like when people praise me too much because I don't agree with it. Right. I think >> in our industry is so young and we do barely, you know, not that much comparing to other uh industries that have much more experience.

So I feel like the superlatives the the superlative adjectives >> they don't have a place. So, I try to lower them like it's not that good, you know? It's not that good. I'm I am I don't know what I'm doing. I I'm just experimenting and I I am sort of good, I guess, but I have no clue what I'm doing. I really have no clue. >> I I'm just >> The only thing that works for me I I don't really agree with what you're saying with like we as collectively as like our community or industry doesn't deserve that type of praise. I think we do and I'm I stand by a lot of the praise that I give to other painters but I think for myself the only thing I can really do which makes any sense is to separate myself from the work. So instead of thinking am I good or am I not good I think well this work that I've done this model or these several models or box arts whatever it is golden

demon pieces that's good but whatever else I do I have no idea about. So it'll be like, "Yeah, I'm happy with this one thing I did." So whenever someone says, "You're really good at this." I try to translate that to I I did something you thought I was good that that you thought was good, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on my general capacity or skill, and the next thing I do might not be as good. >> And actually accepting that you can do bad things or not bad, but not as good or just >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. But that's I I agree with that.

That's that's the that's the thing that might work for me is to try to really embrace that yeah the next thing might not be as good or the next five things might not be as good and that's >> it doesn't say anything it doesn't say anything about me it's just not like yeah I'm doing something that is not perfect is it am I am I bad for that no a human being doing stuff sometimes yes sometimes no you know it's >> life is for the first >> yeah for the for the first couple years when I was painting which is uh 25 years ago. I um I would say that every model I did was better than the last. It doesn't really make sense for that to be the case now.

Um certainly not for like heavy metal work. That's just not how it works. You'll have some that are really really good and where you're really committed and some others that you're not. I I I guess you feel the same way with your box arts. >> It would be crazy, I guess, for you to say like, yeah, everyone is better than the last. >> There's no like it's not linear that way, right? >> Yeah. It's not. It's Yeah, it's nuts. >> Exactly. >> Does any of that resound it? >> I I want to go back to your base there for a second, Jamie, before you uh before we completely So, there's there's two things. First of all, uh I guess you're afraid of fucking up that base because you think that what you do will be like non-reversible.

Uh one thing I tried Yeah. Because I think one thing that I've tried to remind myself is that almost nothing I do is reversible. Either by literally stripping the paint off, which I never do, or just painting over it or like touching it up. If I'm doing something and I'm like, "That's not at all what I wanted to do, I'll keep painting it." >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] >> Does that make sense for you or do you feel like every paint stroke will be like >> No, no, it's it's the reality is more like it's just the fear of it rather than um >> the thing. But >> yeah, the the the the concept. Okay. So, when you were first explaining uh where you align yourself on expectations, I was thinking it's not that they I won't meet their expectations.

It's [clears throat] that they won't see me how I expect myself to be. >> But then you you got round and it was the same thing, right? It was like a tomato or a chicken similar. Um, and yeah, it's it's it's just weird. It's very weird to have that um >> feeling because I know I've released stuff that's shit and I'm happy with it. So, I know it's shit like The Killer Can. >> I know it's objectively not great, but I was still really happy >> with the piece and happy to like proud to show that I did a model, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> So then I thought it s it's it's maybe slightly more nuanced that I have an idea in my head like a really clear picture but I can't I'm I I don't know how to get that picture out of my head onto the model. >> How could you? >> Just A B CDE E. I don't Yeah, I know. Right. So like like >> is that that's what I need to let go of more more than idea of how I'm perceived.

>> Yes. But two things you can again you can just talk to us or anyone else if you're like if you have an idea even reference photos >> just go like I want to do this and we can chat about it. Or the other thing I was going to say like what about just a practice piece get another rock even sculpt a a shittier looking one of Milliput and just try it on that. But it feels like you're you're a um medical student. You're a you're a student to be a doctor, right? And you want to be a cardiologist or whatever the fuck you want to be. And you are studying for seven years in the university and >> Oh, I see. And then you finally come out and and >> you want the first operation like you want to go straight from university to operating an open heart like literally like from zero to you know >> Yeah. Yeah. No >> without going with through anything without doing tests without going practicing and I I know you know that it doesn't make

sense. >> I know it's >> but you don't you don't know. [laughter] >> No. So, so and Martin, thank you by the way for the support of the you guys will help out. Um, I want to do it by myself because of the whole thing that we came up with the other day, which was finish it and then ask for feedback, right? >> I'm trying to I want to live on that sword. >> Um, and I did think before I started this, I was going to do the base before we started the conversation. So, we don't necessarily need to pep me up to get me there, but the conversation has still let me dive deeper into my own uh thought process and brain.

>> Well, let let's I mean, as a lot of our conversations, this isn't just about you and your base. It's about our listeners and their various projects that they're struggling with. >> Surely, there's a lot more people that feel this in the same way. Well, I'm I'm really looking forward to breaking this um chain that I'm in, >> if that makes sense. Like the the the shackles that are binding me. Um >> also something that Martin said that I I think it's really on point is about the going back was so that when you do something it's not not reversible.

And this is um if you see painting as a as a process, so it will never be done until it is. It's not like and this is this is actually very important. >> Yeah. >> Because it's not like it will be done from the start and you then you keep doing it and keep doing it better. It it will never be okay until it is finally okay. I don't think that you're getting what I'm saying.

>> I mean, let me try and ext extrapolate this. You're basically saying that like I mean, it's an abstract idea or not abstract uh not necessarily to do with painting. Uh I have a model, I I spray it black, I paint it, I start filling in all the details and it let's say it's like tabletop ready, >> but I don't I'm going for No. Okay. >> Yeah. >> It's more about having a piece >> and trying and and one brush stroke. And this breast stroke is okay. >> It's good. >> Another breast stroke. And this breast stroke is good, you know. It's it's it's it's worth it. And and then another breast stroke. And yes. And then another breast stroke. I know. I fucked it up.

This brushstroke is wrong. That doesn't work like this. There's no good breast strokes and there's no bad breast strokes. There's just breaststrokes because everything >> and No, no, no. This is actually I think we I I we found >> this goes back to the discussion of recipes and the process that I was talking about the organic process where I guess that's what you're saying is you you paint until you're done painting. >> It's not done and then you keep painting anyway. >> You you keep painting because it isn't done. >> Yeah. the the the first breast strokes will always be completely [clears throat] um irrelevant because they are the first breast strokes and probably at the end you will not see them.

>> Uh so the only relevant the only relevant work is that well it's not it's at start as well but [laughter] >> it's just the b a building. So >> yeah, >> it's not like you you have an doing another analogy, it's not like you have a building and then you put a column and then a column and if one of the columns is wrong, the rest is wrong. It doesn't work like that. It's an organic process and it's never right. It's never never right until it is. I get this now. Thank you for that analogy. But whats if every brushstroke is wrong then you're fucked, mate. No, that's that's how it is.

That's how it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. I see. You're not even talking about a project. You're talking about everything works out basically. >> It is. Yes. >> Honestly, it's a good the Jamie motto definitely applies here. >> Okay. >> It's something I've been trying to teach myself. Like I I come back to the our now's epiphany with the um uh NMM helmet and that kind of like don't be a pussy, just go for it. That's it's a little bit like that with what I was saying about reversible cuz again I I don't mean reversible as I'll get out the acetone every time I fuck something up. It's just like if it's to do with painting and unless it's like something really specific like NMM or freehand where there might actually be a ceiling, you know, then I'm like I can't do this. A lot of the stuff I'll just Yeah, I'll just try. I I'll go for it and then if I'm not happy with it, I'll keep painting.

>> Yeah. >> There's never a point where I'll go this didn't work out. Now, what do I do? >> That's that doesn't really happen. >> And that that's the main like that's that feels like confidence to me. That's what that is. Not knowing that I can paint anything and I'll be like, "No, I can >> whatever I do will be great." It's more like whatever whenever I fuck up, I can probably fix it probably. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it is the it will all work out, right? Um

Yeah. Okay. I'm with you now. I agree. I'll fuck it up and then I'll enjoy the process of fucking it up. >> Okay. >> So, I'll see you boys in half an hour. Give me and I'll quickly paint it. [laughter] >> Uh banter. So, to go to another analogy. Okay. The one that I wanted to break the the conversation. Um I think I'm not going to have closure on that whole conversation that we just had until next week. >> Yeah. >> Until I implement it. Right. >> Me neither. when I if I don't see any progress.

>> Yeah. And I feel uh I feel quite strongly which I won't get right. So I've I you know this whole anxiety thing how I don't I don't have anxiety but I have subtle anxiety or I don't know what it's not real. It's not anxiety but it's this weird feeling of when I'm caught between multiple projects. Yeah. >> It can be anxiety. >> Yeah. But it's not real. It's not it's not like there's no when I looked at that pie chart >> Yeah. But but what I do have real anxiety for is flying. Okay. So in a plane, not me. I'm not a bird. Like in a Right.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. Good. Right. And I never did. And then I had my accident and then I didn't fly for like seven years. Not not deliberately. I just didn't fly for some reason. And then I was flying to meet Tina and I was like I'll be honest like it's weird. This is the conversation. It's weird cuz I think I'm scared of flying but I know they never crash. She goes, "No, like seven, eight flights crash a year." And I was like, "Sorry, what?" She was like, "Yeah, they crash all the time." I was like, "So, literally from that moment, I developed a fear of flying where my hands get sweaty. I'm like, but it's it's so much less now." But anyway, I'm I am getting to the point. But 11 years ago, 12 years ago, I would be worried and I'd know I've got a flight in 3 weeks and I'd already be worried about getting on that plane, right? And I never not got on the plane. I just every time I got on the plane, I'd say to myself, "This is where I'm about to die." Like I'm I know it. This is probably right. And I'd say a little prayer like to my own God.

>> Healthy. >> Yeah. And then I'd get on and my hands would be sweaty and it was only It's only the takeoff I don't like. Anyway, time has gone past. I've taken many flights and I'm less scared now, but I still have this I imagine what's about to happen and I keep running through the bad shit that's about to happen and I'm like, "Okay, this will happen and then this will happen and then I'm dead and then this will happen and then this will happen. Then I'm dead." >> Um, and the dying isn't the bit I'm scared of. It's the falling out of the fucking sky part that I'm scared of. Okay. Right. Um, [snorts] but I've realized in the last two flights now that I'm able to block those bad feelings out. So instead of just thinking I I can't remember where I'm going with this, but oh yeah, to painting. But instead of thinking about it, when I'm about to think about it, I just don't think about it, right? And it's worked amazingly. I've had two flights where do the takeoff and my brain's about to go, "Oh yeah, the plane's just going to stall and you'll fall out of the sky." And I go, "Nope, I'm just going to not think about it." And somehow it's working. So two parts here, two points. First part, either

it's not real anxiety even though it's it's been terrifying me for 13 years or the mind really is quite good now. >> Yeah. >> And terrifying as well. >> What's at the same time and and I resonate with this as well because when I always thought this when when you're afraid of turbulences in the in the plane, you are not afraid of the turbulences. You imagine what comes after the turbulence. >> Yeah. Basically, >> you you imagine the plane falling down or or just the turbulence >> the wing snapping off for example.

>> Yeah. Or the turbulence is going worse. >> I sometimes I sometimes imagine my the floor falling out. I mean is plummeting that >> that's a new one. >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] Damn. And the ceiling, I guess. >> I I want to inject an important parenthesis here for any listeners. When Tina says they crash all the time, >> they don't. I've since found out, right? >> Yeah. I just had a quick look. There's about five fatal plane crashes a year out of about 35 35 to 40 million flights, which means that the odds of a plane crash is 1 in 11 million.

>> So, yeah, I read that you could you could fly every day for like a thousand years and not have accident. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, >> that sounds right. Yeah. So, we can put that to bed. But that that's that that becomes then the realm of irrational fear which I think is super relevant >> and that's why it's >> it's still a real thing. >> It happens. But it's it's the anxiety is kicking in and making me so the I'm not saying like think of a green elephant and you're going to you can't not think of that, right? Because the idea is in the head. But >> I I embrace the concept of of this bad thing that happens. So I run down the rabbit hole. Okay. the a bird flies into here and this happens and this happens and this happens. Right?

>> Rather than which is what I'm doing now. Um oh a bird fly no >> don't run down the rabbit hole. Just stop there in it right and um I could pause for him but fuck her now. >> Even though he has an annoyingly real excuse >> the cat left and then he chased the cat. So there come back. >> Um so that that's what I'm doing now. That's what I need to apply for Warhammer. I'm I'm now at the point with flying where I'm logically able to tell myself to stop being and it's not a pussy because it's it's you know a phobia is is different. It's the same as like gambling whatever. But >> yeah, >> I'm so far past that now that I can go right stop being a dickhead.

>> That's where you are and now just enjoy your music or read your book >> and that's where I need to get to painting. just be like look and that's why I was saying before I think although again this conversation's helped but I think yesterday I realized that it is just a it's a conscious decision to go I'm worried or I'm not worried I'm just going to not be worried and do it and fuck it up or not fuck it up >> aka paint it >> might even help to it might even help to think about doesn't really make sense when I say it but like think about the the the next model after this one like keep reminding yourself But it is a process and it's yeah it's >> this is just another step on the way and so on and so on that Mr. Miyagi shit. So uh it's not it's really this is most likely not like the last most important model you'll paint.

>> Uh you'll you'll keep at it. You'll keep working at it and if this one isn't so great just >> keep going. >> And and this was the whole point of task masters right to to make them not important. If we we we don't if we keep raising stakes of dust master >> and we we make it like a it has to be super amazing. >> Then we we will have a problem. >> Yeah. >> Very true. >> Fuck. [cough] >> Do you think I [clears throat] can crush a nut in my hand? >> I'll be honest. I can't. [snorts] >> Maybe under that. Oh, >> I did it.

[laughter] Oh, that's amazing. Hold on. Oh, >> okay. >> Big content again. >> There you go. There you go. You can't see it's >> Is that an almond? >> Is it? No. Yeah. Yeah, it is. >> Superior. Um, anyway, that was a journey for 30 minutes of of >> That's not even the meat of it. Welcome to Mini Matters. We get into the shit.

>> Yeah. Right. Let's have a quick uh psychological break and Oh, okay. Hold on. >> Fuck me. [laughter] Right. Do you want thought of the day? >> Do you want what I'm listening to? Or do you want a new new segment which is me giving you ideas for new segments? Okay, are you ready? Segment number one. Okay, new segment. That's not right. Okay, you guys ask me a series of ethical questions and I tell you if they're good or bad.

Okay. >> Ethical questions. Okay. >> Like example. >> I don't this it doesn't make sense. Saying goodbye to shop people. >> Moving out the way for people. >> Shop people. >> Shop people. Saying goodbye. >> Yeah. Like And then you'd ask me, should you say goodbye to a shop person? And I'd give you a reason why or not. >> I see. Like a bus driver or >> Yeah. Okay. Moving out the old way for old people. You'd ask me this question, right? And then I'd give you my thought on that subject. >> Sounds good.

>> I I thought it would be more like if you have four people chain to a a train. >> Wow. >> Yeah, exactly. Like the only problem. >> Yeah, that work. That's great, too. I don't come up with the questions. So, >> and I would let them go for the greater good. >> We can we can go with ethical ethical dilemmas and come up with some good ones. >> That's not right. Is that segment? Okay. Another segment. Okay. I propose to you ideas. It's called would you buy it? Okay. >> And then I give you ideas of products that I think are quite cool. So >> an idea I had was a towel that has a designated section for your ass and your balls >> so that you don't dry your ass and balls and then go straight to your face.

>> Okay. >> Dict. Um, and then you say if you'd buy or not, and then obviously someone else can buy it, but I would want some percentage on rights for these ideas. A yogurt pot that's inside out when you get to the end of the yogurt, you want to lick the edges. So, you can just pop it upside out and then lick the pot. I see. >> Okay. A box that cuts your hair instantly. You just put your head in and lasers do it all.

>> I got ideas. I got a lot of ideas. Okay. Anything to do with lasers, I'm in. >> Or acid. You can do it with acid. >> Fucking acid. >> Skin. How do you stop your eyebrows? >> You just don't >> just tape it or put your hand >> cell tape and then they get ripped off. Um, another one. It'll be all right on the night. Hut. It'll be all right on the night now. It'll be >> Are we recording? >> Yeah, of course we're recording. >> Okay. >> This is the new segment on now. This is the segment where I give you segment ideas and you say which one we go forward. We were talking about painting and and and expectations and being quite serious for like 20 minutes. This is this is we're on something else now.

>> I I genuinely thought that it was that we were not recording. >> I was unsure. I'm never sure. >> Look, [clears throat] I that is that that was exhausting that 30 minutes. Okay. So, this is a break. Oh, disgusting. But okay, so it will be all right on the night is videos where they show you bloopers from different TV shows. Okay. >> Mhm. in one big thing and they do like once every like six months. H is it will be all right tonight. Things that I said that other people found offensive and you have to say if they're offensive or not.

>> Okay. Do you want an example? >> I mean I have many in my head so like Yeah. Me too. Me too. >> I could I I'm happy to give you I'm like I could give you some. >> I know you are. >> Yeah. Okay. I said to a pregnant lady good luck. >> Okay. Now, is that is that good or bad? Is it offensive? >> I don't think it is. No, I don't think that's too bad. >> So, that one's tech. And then Jamie's fine. And then I'll get I'll I'll get some video that'll overlay that like puts me like maybe good luck. Good luck will never be offensive on its own. It's all about context. Who that lady was, what's your relationship? But I just I would be >> It was a work lady.

>> Yeah. >> Work lady. And we were talking. We'd been talking for five minutes. I said, "Right, I like she's like, "This is my last day. I'm going to paternity leave." I was like, "Right, good luck with everything and I'll see you in 6 months or 9 months or whatever." And then my my my team lead who is deeply offensed by he's the guy who I was looking at girls tits and he says, "Why did you do that?" And I was like, "Well, fuck me. She wasn't wearing a bra and they walked straight past me and I saw them and I looked and they were good and he was very offended." So, it was this same guy who said, "You can't." >> Yeah. Well, yeah. He didn't fire me in the end. He quit. No. Anyway, um Okay, good. So, of those three segments, I'll let the I'll let the the comments cuz now we like subscribe, right?

>> Yeah. Can tell us. >> In fact, we we'll do and we'll put that online. >> I've uh I've tried to learn now that Jaime's thoughts are not conversation topics. So, if you want to fire off some Jaime's thoughts, we can listen. >> Well, they are. They can be. They can be. They can be. >> Okay. I Do you know what the hardest thing about I don't have a segment. The hardest thing about Jamie Hupper's thought of the day, fuck me, it's just thought of the day. >> Yeah. Is that I There's some I really want you to do.

>> Well, yeah. Exactly. >> You want >> I really want some of like there's ones I really want to fucking talk about and they've been on there now for like six weeks, but I'm sticking to the rules. >> Just do those then. We don't need to go through the whole fucking song and dancing. Okay. >> No. Fuck you. One. >> Number two. >> This one's good. This one's good. Oh, honestly, they're all fucking good. Mine. Okay, now >> you ready? Eclipses are weird, are they? Good. I'm glad you asked. Are now? Um, well, I think about this. Okay.

I think they're almost impossible to happen, obviously. So, two things here. Okay. >> Yeah. How many billions and billions and billions of galaxies there are. Okay. >> Mhm. >> There's there's there's stupid there's so many galaxies that you can't imagine the number and that's only the observable universe. Now, so yes, >> not related to eclipses though. >> Our sun and our moon. What are you talking about? >> There will be some planets where eclipses will happen because of the statistics, right? Basically infinite. It's just what are the odds of intelligent people as good-looking as us?

>> Yeah. >> Listen with listeners as stupid as ours. >> Yeah. >> And having that ven diagram is crazy though. Yeah. >> Right. >> Now, the irony of me calling our listeners stupid and they are stupid and then talking about eclipses is beautiful. But you're telling me that you have a sun perfectly the distance away from us. Okay. And then you have a little fucking moon >> the perfect size and distance away from us to eclipse the sun so that you get a halo around it. Now the halo admittedly will probably always happen because >> wherever the right but but it blocks >> I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very good point.

>> It's an extreme coincidence. The fact >> Yeah. The moon should be way smaller or or way bigger would work. >> Not really about eclipses but but the fact that the sun and the moon are the same size. That's that's mindb blow >> from the obviously >> because they are not >> exactly >> just because they're not. Yeah. >> And the moon the moon is fucking tiny really and the sun is is very big but the sun is like 20 miles away and the moon is maybe half a mile away or 2 miles away or something. Right. So >> that's exactly what it is. Yeah. >> If you just scale that up you you'll probably see that I was right >> a bit. Yeah, I think so. So that annoyed me and also fascinated me. Like I don't believe in God or any kind of creator whatsoever. Um but nature has a way of me thinking that's fucking bonkers. And this is one of them. Right.

>> Space is certainly something where I often think I can't think about this. It's too crazy. >> Yeah. It fascinates me so much in space. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I am very very fascinated by it. But I mean that in the sense of yeah, I'm I'm not quite serious that I never think about it. But it's like it's it's there's stuff where I realize we we literally can't understand it. >> And there's an element of fear to that to me where I'm like painting. This is beyond my entire potential to understand.

>> Yeah. I um I I love I love it. Now this is obviously a miniature painting podcast, but I I I think maybe the listeners have worked out Yeah. Exactly. That actually this is a bullshit podcast with the veneer of painting. Do you know what I mean? >> Come for the painting. Stay for the bullshit. We've tried to be very clear about this. >> That should be I mean I like that mine. I don't think I've heard it before, but I like it a lot. Or maybe I haven't. >> That should be a t-shirt. >> I mean, I still want to do t-shirts. So, we we are making or thinking about doing a patron and t-shirts like that will be on there. M >> we should ask our listeners uh what do you want us to put on our patron that would make you subscribe. I mean, we will give you everything even if you want.

>> Yeah. Like Yeah. Like >> water or you know Jimmy's >> Oh shit. Socks. >> We haven't we haven't started an only fans for a reason and that reason is we might do a patron. >> Patron >> only patrons. Um to finish the star thing. It annoyed me. I understand now why people who don't understand science or had no science would think that something fucking weird is going on. M >> even more so when it only happens like once every 80 years or something. Uh and it just yeah it blew my it blows my mind every time I see one. [snorts] We have got lads and I'm ashamed to say it's not you two and it's me.

Our first endorsement >> what >> free products >> do we? >> Well >> you got free stuff. >> Hold on. Let me find out the name otherwise it's not I can't I'm not plugging it am I? Hold on. Okay, the name is Monument Hobbies and theneu.comuu. It'seu. I said.com so you knew it's a website cuzu no one would fucking know what that is. Yes. So I'm going to be getting courtesy of Mali. I don't fucking know what I'm going to be getting to be honest with you. But I'm going to be getting something. And they do do paints and they do do inks and they do do brushes and they do do models.

>> So that's four things. >> Tell us all about it. >> Yeah. Well, did You just remembered me that I I received a big parcel of the Oh, now did you get it because of many matters or did you get it because you're on now? Yeah, I can't hear you. Hold on. Can you hear it, Martin? >> No, I can't. >> Okay, cool. >> You accidentally touched the mute button on your mic. >> No. No. Guess pause for this technical uh [laughter] I'm really happy that it's are now not me this time.

>> All right. Well, did you >> Okay. So, that was segments that I want to do that think you should do it. What I'm listening to is me. Oh, >> I want to know what you're listening to. The album from 1999. Yeah. Oh, by Muse. Showbiz by Muse. >> Oh, is that from 1999? >> Yeah, we're getting old. >> Has that got Stockholm syndrome on it? >> I don't think so. I think it has >> Yeah. Muscle music. Yeah, >> it's brilliant. Brilliant album. And it reminds me of when I was younger, when I used to be young.

Good. I think that's it. That's everything that I've got. Oh, Dr. Love Brush. Okay. So, let's do the meat of it now. >> Mhm. >> Fundamentally, Martin is an heavy metal painter and our now is an R now painter. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think that's the crux of it. I now um um was wholeheartedly an heavy metal painter as well until recently and I've realized that and that was Alfonso is pushing me. So to quote Alfonso, fuck smoothness. Okay, >> the whole concept of suck smoothness is to be free, right? It's nothing to do with smooth or not. It's to paint how you want to paint basically. That's my understanding from when we did the interview five, six years ago. That was what he kind of said. Like he doesn't care what you as an individual is doing.

He cares about not being restricted, right? So someone can't tell you, oh this is shit. It's not smooth. And you can't tell someone, hang on, you've you've layered that a thousand times. That's shit. >> Right. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, that's actually a good point to start because I think we the two sides. Let's say the two sides >> it's basically >> diminish diminish the work of the other in a way. >> Exactly. So the epime metal style is diminished by saying that they don't have um that they just do as you say paint by numbers and and the other side is diminished by it's not clean enough or you can see the paint in you know you can you can see the trick >> and it's funny how how these things are so understood for the community in a way

like it's it's just common common knowledge rule right >> if if you're in one side you think that if you're in the other side the other thing >> and it's a good starting point for the discussion I guess >> that's why I did just plucked it people say I'm not creative fucking hell >> I think I I uh no sorry did you want to continue with that >> well I was going to say I didn't fully understand it when Alfonso was telling me cuz I I was new to the hobby then. I'd been painting a year maybe, right? And I didn't see why it was contentious at all, but I know that a lot of people hated it, right? They were like, "You can't say this. It's it's bullshit. It's just aggressive for being aggressive, right?" >> But I think look, >> look him now back six years, seven years later, I'm like, man, >> maybe the delivery was wrong. Maybe he shouldn't have done fuck smoothness, >> but the fact that he did it got attention >> and I actually completely completely agree with the concept of it in >> Yeah. Like whole heart.

>> No shit. >> Yeah. >> I I I think either there was a lot of misunderstanding or whatever and I don't know how many people were complaining and how popular it was or whatever but archive is small, right? So they do everything gets around basically. Um [snorts] to be fair, I don't think I don't I think most people understood. It's just that if some people doesn't and they complain, you notice >> more. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think that what's weird about it. So there there's one thing about I think defining it saying that it's about freedom is obviously very vague. I get that that might be the intended purpose and it might help a lot of people in that way. For me, what it's more about is understanding that painting really well or painting terribly is much much more than rendering. So, fuck smoothness means there's other things you can do well besides blending. And if you get stuck on that one thing, which yeah, sometimes we can call it different things. I would say rendering is a good

term for it. is basically trying to um slowly build up the like uh blends between colors or volumetric highlights or whatever, but focusing like solely or very much on that might distract you from everything else that could be good. I think that to me is the sort of point of it and where I will agree with it is that it it might detract from other it's almost like if you look at like stats and you have different like bars for a model and why it's good. It might have a good conversion, a good composition, good color scheme, good um uh um yeah just contrast in different ways. And then it might also be really well rendered and smooth. If it doesn't have that, it can still have all the other things and be really really good.

Um, subjectively, of course, but still someone might think, well, this isn't very smooth. And then if they don't appreciate all those other things, I I I would probably think that they're quite narrow-minded, and they're not. Maybe um maybe they've uh missed something. But that that's where um going away from the f smoothness now like that's where my perception of so growing up with Debbie Mel I didn't think of anything right I saw the models I like the models I tried to recreate the models and then getting a bit older and starting talking to people in the community I realized yeah you've got this um it's not a it's not a distinction but you you would often hear people say it's not smooth enough right like that's not smooth enough and I think there's kind of like a blindsidedness that would happen. And and I I fell into the trap of thinking that's what the all the heavy metal painters believed to their core, right?

That okay, no, it has to be ultra smooth and blah blah blah. And it was only when I met a lot of the studio guys that I realized they're all, not all, in fact, no, but a lot of them also have other styles they like. They're not like limited to heavy metal. They're not going home and blah blah blah. They they look at other stuff and they have appreciation for other styles, but their job is to paint in a way that that is good for or at least how the company want their models to be perceived, right? Super clean.

>> Um you don't really have shadows. You don't have you someone else could define, right? But >> yeah, I can define it. But we've we've discussed previously the specific uh how you can uh define the heavy metal style and why it is the way it is. What we want to what were we going to say Arno >> that if you are anime metal style even if you look at other other stuff which is I think inevitable and and if you do not then it maybe that's there's a problem there but um it's more because I I don't think it's even possible to not be aligned with the with the idea of the heavy metal painting. If you are not aligned, you cannot do it in a way. If you That's what I'm trying to say.

If you you have to agree to do it. Yes. >> But on a model by model basis, like I've seen a lot of painters who who can easily do or could jump into heavy metal style as it were, but then also do your style as it were. >> Yeah. No, no, no. Of course. I mean, it's just painting. So, we can do >> What do you mean? What? What do you mean by a line >> there? [clears throat] There I don't Because what? What >> I saying? Yeah, I also agree with what mine's saying then cuz I I if my example didn't carry on just explain it better. >> Um align means um that that you want to do it basically >> and that it needs to be intentional.

>> No. Well, yes, but you are not going to dedicate your life to painting something that you don't uh >> want to or love. >> Yeah. love in a way. >> Doesn't that apply to everything in any field? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> I mean, I was I was stating something pretty simple actually that became [laughter] I thought it would be pretty easily understood. >> No, >> I was just wondering what what what you if you meant that as opposed to anything else like why painting every metal style needs to be something you commit to as opposed to another style or any other type of painting.

Um maybe I'm saying that if you are maybe I'm just talking through myself like because I I could I could not do it. I could not paint every metal style. Um so I think that if you do paint that for literally all your well all your professional life you need to align with it in a way because if you don't I don't know how to explain it better. I think align is a very good word for it.

>> No I get it though. I think I get what you're saying. And I don't understand the punchline like uh I don't understand the ramifications or the the what what it means. >> Ah I don't think it was a there was a punch line. I was I was just literally a statement. I was just responding to to the fact that uh heavy metal painters can do or or are like this sort of to be fair, I'm not I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, but [laughter] I I what I understood of you saying that everyone can paint everything whenever they want and I don't think it's that >> because we clearly align with something, right? Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think uh there's there are people on the now two heavy metal teams that I think are much more interested in going outside of >> that uh still pretty undefined box. But uh and I think that those are the painters that I appreciate the most maybe even like personally but certainly

their their work. And then there's other others that I think are just kind of a bit conservative with their painting. And I I I I think it's been really interesting being on the team myself and having painted that way and wanting to paint, which probably is what you're talking about, wanting to paint like anime painter for years and years and years and then seeing that there is a kind of uh yeah, like a conservatism to that aside where I'm I think it's restrictive and limited. Um, but yeah, but it's still it's it's interesting that it's become a little bit of a default for so many people. It

does make sense though, but it's it's kind of become that way for like Warhammer. >> Well, you saw even a couple of episodes ago where I suddenly realized I only knew how to paint heavy metal. >> So, that was my expectation, right? was that's >> Bosch and that's what oh I can't do I can't paint that model because >> and in my head I would I can't recreate every metal style on that level. So I would just dismiss it and find it intimidating and not do it. So even now as a 46 year old man um I th in case anybody wants to you know steal my identity um can't reconcile with it.

Only now am I realizing that there is another way to paint. Um I guess from this conversation, are we trying to gleam um the benefits and negatives of both or are we just trying to justify or understand the differences in both? >> Good question. >> Good question. What do you think? Like do when you when you found uh I I guess when you had your epiphany and you decided that every metal wasn't the be all end all of painting, you found it refreshing and it was a it was a posit positive experience. You thought it was good and it opened uh your eyes.

>> Yeah. >> Um interestingly I >> Yeah. >> An interesting thing about that is I never had that epiphany, but I agree. I've never thought that every metal painting needs to like define how I paint or how anyone paints or that it that's how things should be done. It's probably been a sort of a slow buildup to more of a uh an improvement honestly and an evolution just me thinking feeling like I I want to get better and uh broaden my horizons as much as possible but like little by little it never came as like a one >> suddenly I realized that I've you know open the door or something but >> I g I guess yeah I I and I I think that's come from you being in the hobby over a longer period and consistently and doing it as being like how can I improve myself right has a ceiling and it I think it does have a ceiling because it's prescribed how to do it and I think as soon as

you're prescriptive of something you lose >> uh a you create a ceiling you lose anything like because >> this is how to do X means you can do X as best It has a level, right? Whereas if you're like this painting, there's no fucking rules there. You do what you want, right? So >> that that touches with something that I the main reason why I don't align with uh that is predictability. you uh the the main point actually I would say of of the metal style is predictability which is which it makes you less um impressed is not the word but >> aruck with with painting because you expect it and everything that it's out of that >> it's not following the the purpose of that whole thing.

>> I don't know. I don't really agree that it's it doesn't that that it has to be one thing. That's still that that's what what I got from some of those people that I found were a bit too conservative. But I've seen what heavy metal painters can do outside of work. And I I still feel that that that it may yeah, maybe there's a ceiling, but it's really fucking high. And there's stuff that we can do that is of that style. Um, but still very very interesting and and really great and kind of moving like you can you can push the boundaries essentially. Um, I know that there's people who've tried to do that for for work essentially and I love that. I think that's that's >> of the style. I think we've seen it like on and I when we went to Warhammer we met up with the guy who painted the the Nightbringer, right? and we couldn't talk for long because it was pissing down with rain and they banned us from going to Warhammer World >> um for a dog.

>> Basically, I think that he is doing that, but he I I want to quickly backtrack even though I'm jumping. I don't think that having a ceiling is a bad thing mostly because it's it the way it sounds it sounds negative. But actually the reality is if that's the style you want to play paint, sorry, and there's probably 30 people in the world who's hit that ceiling in that job, who really cares about the other 80,000 people that aren't hitting that top level ceiling, but they're having a great time painting, right? If they're enjoying their job and they're enjoying painting, it doesn't matter what style they're doing, I think, is basically what I'm saying. And I realized the statement of saying there's a ceiling is like, "Oh, you have to aspire to be the best painter in the world and try these other styles." which I disagree with as in I I didn't say it, but obviously that I'm just saying like >> if you're painting that way and you're enjoying it, it's great >> because you're just enjoying it. And I was until 2016, I was having loads of fun painting. I'd spend 100 hours on a model and I'd enjoy every hour of it.

And actually, ironically, only when I went to the other style did I stop having as much fun, weirdly. >> Yeah. >> I I just think that ceiling makes it sound like there's a It can only ever be so good. It can only ever be so interesting. There's only so much you can do with it. That's what ceiling sounds like to me. >> Yeah. And and so that I I now sort of said it as well is is semi- true, but you see some of the creative stuff. I think I think we're not defining it properly. I think there's styles and then there's stuff you can produce, >> right?

>> And I've seen pieces Yeah, I've seen loads of pieces in heavy metal style that I fucking loved. Ultra creative, ultra fun. >> Yeah. >> But I've been more impressed by the piece than the style. They could do a similar piece with the same thought and do it in a different style and I think I'd like it equally as much. So it doesn't matter if that person creating that thing >> did every metal style. I don't really give a shit to be honest how it's created. The issue is or the the the problem is if you've got this prescribed style, you are limited by default into doing this one thing, right? That that's I guess the crux of it, maybe.

>> Yeah, but but that has to go for any style. >> Yeah, there's just more styles if you don't do every metal style. It's This isn't an argument, by the way. >> That's just because there's a name. That's just because it has a name and it's connected to a group of people working for one company because it's not because of this. Yeah. Sorry. because it's huge. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But it's not it's not that well defined. It doesn't mean like if you paint every metal style, you're you're not turning on a switch. It's like we were talking about with the recipes. >> Yeah, that is two people here.

>> M like the first thing is every metal have to have a style. They absolutely have to because they want a brand, right? and they want a recognizable >> and the consistency the consistency is there's an explicit demand for consistency >> which means you need to have a style >> so whether it's good or bad I guess actually starts getting into another conversation there and I I think I've tried to avoid good or bad here because now I would start saying like I think >> yeah go on >> yeah I don't I don't think there is even the gutbat I don't think that there's a place for for it like gutbat in respect of what there's preferences and and certainly we can have some and we are entitled to but good or bad I mean >> but the conversation we've been having on now is is negative we are saying that GW is limiting stuff which isn't it has to be negative >> but that's not negative >> I think it is slightly though okay the way I've been framing it I think

>> even though I wasn't trying to be I was trying to be impartial I think it it just has to be negative because you're saying this style is only you can only do it this way and this style you've got freedom to do everything you want. But actually really what we're saying is that this is every metal style and it is a style and it is one way to do something but it is just a style in a in a sea of styles. The only the only point is because we have a whole competition on this style. It's going to be you're going to get used to it more and you see it more and whereas the other competitions are any style but ironically the other competitions don't like heavy metal style.

>> Well and also Golden Demon has varied quite a lot in which styles are preferred. >> Yeah. >> They for a couple of years made a big >> you what? >> Yeah. That change like when Max was running it it was much >> Yeah. Yeah. he made a point of uh of of picking entries that were less heavy metal um style. >> But I don't think I don't know maybe maybe I'm we don't understand things the same way and it's totally fine. But I I do think that the whole point of of the metal style is that it is restrictive. It's literally the only way that makes it so.

And and I don't think it's a bad thing. It's just a thing that that because this exists for a reason. If there was no restrictive, it wouldn't exist because then we wouldn't have heavy metal style which would scuff everything else, right? And everyone would paint differently. >> So, it is restrictive. If not, it wouldn't exist. >> Yeah. >> Um, is it is that bad? No. Is it is it restrictive? Yes. in a way that you can do outside of this uh set rules. Let's say these rules can widen or not. But but is it is it bad? No, because it's a choice. This the restrictiveness is a choice. And and you may choose to be in in that restrictiveness. It's like if I suddenly uh start to paint with just three colors or four and this defines my style. I just set myself those rules and I I'm I'm choosing to. I could not um be in these rules. But is it bad that I do?

It's not. But where like do you think that you could define something? Cuz I feel like when we were talking about like my golden demon piece, it sounded a bit like you were essentially saying like I can't give you any feedback because this is heavy metal style. so far away from the way I paint is what you were saying when would you say that if it wasn't literally an heavy metal painter if this was just someone saying can you give me feedback on something I painted would you go no this looks too much like heavy metal I have nothing to say about this >> no it's not like it it looks too much like a metal is that I can give you feedback of course but that will change the my my feedback will change your the style of the piece because it's it's not what I like so it will go towards something else, >> that will be pointless because it's not the style you're trying to paint.

>> Exactly. If you are trying to to get feedback from this particular style, go to someone else because I'm not the one. >> Yeah. But that that's my point is there's no we don't know of any other definable style besides every metal. So you would then have to make that call. That person probably wouldn't say I want to paint like heavy metal. A lot of people would argue that they paint in some in a style that isn't pure heavy metal. Like I'm a weird example because I've literally worked for the team and and I know from years before I joined that I wanted to paint like them. I think a lot of people more and more these days don't feel that way explicitly. I know I know a lot of people do, but I think there's loads of people >> who who would say no, I'm just painting.

I'm influenced by loads of things. If they ask your feedback, would you actually tell them this looks this doesn't look like my style? >> No. >> And then give feedback now based on this which which sums it up quite well, right? I think well maybe not an a literal happened to me. So I did lessons with David Arover and I painted um one of the spirals uh orc and squig rider, right? And I I did it quite a lot. It was like rarely refined, but still loose. But I was really happy with the results. And he told me to strip it all down and then drew on a piece that he would paint exactly how he painted it. So I I lost the version that was me and I completely just tried to do his version. Um I wish I didn't do that. I wish I had have just got small feedbacks and fixed small things, but tried to do my style that was naturally coming out rather than trying to go with this prescribed style that he wanted me to paint. Right. Um, >> and I think that's where so if I go to someone with an heavy metal model and

they fundamentally would do nothing like maybe maybe he should give you feedback into the style that you want on how to improve it. But >> yeah, if I went there with this piece and it was drastically different and then they just started to tell me to just start again, it wasn't helpful feedback at that point. >> And I think that's >> I I have to say that sounds to me really restrictive. I mean, I know David's an amazing painter, and I'm I I think he I don't know. I've not done any lessons with him, but I imagine he's a great teacher, but it sounds pretty restrictive to me. >> If we want to talk about limitations, that's just like, no, I want you to do it the way I do it. I mean, I >> personally, I don't teaching like that ever.

>> Yeah. I I mean, I I don't Anyway, so yeah, >> I Yeah, exactly. And I think that's >> Yeah, sorry. >> No, go I understand. I mean obviously when I when I give feedback or the teachings even if I'm not a fan of teach of of um feedback um but obviously I do it there's a there's a dial of how much feedback do I have to give and this dial is is secret to me because I I choose I choose how much I I turn this dial up uh when someone that has a very different style that what I am aligned to the feedback the the dial goes very small to the to the low numbers because I if I turn it up I will change the piece completely to what I think it's better but it may not align with this piece right or with this style so I know that I have to give very little change I can improve little things but I cannot

change drastically what what they want to do instead if the piece align more with me I can turn the dial up a and and say this is this is objectively wrong. You can change that what whatever. Um so answering your question, if someone comes to me with a anime piece, I I would give little advice on things that I can I know I can I can control and it can be aligned with with their style. that I could not turn the feedback completely up because then it would be changing the the style of the piece.

>> I think it's it's it's interesting when we talk about styles like plural because the more we talk about it, it just sounds like there's every metal style and then there's everything else. Like sometimes we've talked about this kind of Spanish pictorial style which I think is pretty pretty like defined. But even then, I I've never heard anyone go like, I I definitely want to paint like Spanish people or like I do like this is my style. I paint like all the Spaniards. That's just more of a vague kind of I don't paint like every metal >> in my humble opinion is restrictive and unrestricted.

>> So it's not styles, it's one style is restricted and the other and the other is the whole thing of unrestricted. So I can give you unrestricted feedback but if I give you if if you if you say no I want to keep my my P7 metal and I give you my my feed feedback dialed up most of the feedback I give you you will say no I can't do this because then this this and this >> and I don't want to do it >> exactly exactly because you have a um a bracket of things that you want to do >> uh in instead if we are opening the brackets and we have uh the unrestricted um art form let's say then >> anything can happen and art applies art uh art rules and core values of art apply if you know what I mean so we have about styles I think we're talking about >> so you so you think that in that sense then the speaking of like the small the the dial down feedback if you were looking at an heavy metal piece halfway

through there's nothing you would really do that would push it more towards your style you would or would you would you give any kind of feedback that's >> Yeah, >> the core structure is is completely different. >> You think so? >> I do think so. Absolutely. >> Like the core structure of the of the piece. It's not how I start. It's not how I it's it's the whole the process is different. I don't I don't know really what I could improve in that specific uh way. I I don't I don't really know.

>> I think >> even if it's just specifically related to something like NMM or someone was doing wanted to do more volutric highlights without completely changing the style. >> I mean I could help that. I mean it's not that I could not give any comment whatsoever. Of course I could. >> Yeah. >> Uh but I had I would have to dial down the the >> sure >> the thingy. Uh >> yeah, >> I agree I agree completely with mine's uh view. >> We we we've we've focused on heavy metal versus the world basically.

>> But I don't think we've said which we prefer which I think is clear actually now prefers non heavy metal. Martin prefers heavy metal and I'm somewhere in between if I were to go out there. Um, >> and I also think Martin, you're coming more to or maybe not more that you less clean and more just trying to try other techniques out or not techniques because we can't say that word on this show, but um >> you mean where I'm at personally? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that sounds about right. >> And and I think it was noticeable in the piece. But yeah, so what I'm realizing is heavy metal is just another style and it's only a style because we're calling it a style, which makes sense. I hadn't thought about this before, but if you if you had Spanish style, that's a style and all of a sudden that is prescribed and you're restricted.

>> Yeah. >> But that's literally what style means. It's a restriction in things, right? >> The only Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And the only reason why every Metal and Golden Demon has a style is because GW wanted a style. That's it. They and they wanted a style so they could easily market these models so that when they do a print in a magazine in the 80s early 90s they could you know have a recognizable thing and sell more models. So it makes sense. It's only >> it's only because Golden Demon. Yeah. >> We all care about Golden Demon so much that I think this conversation even comes up in any capacity. Otherwise it wouldn't even be something to talk about. It would just be oh shit that's cool that's every metal style.

>> Oh shit that's cool. That's something else. It's because we go to heavy metal competitions and one piece does well and the other piece Sorry. Yeah, exactly. One piece does well and another piece doesn't do well and you're left thinking is it styles? >> But I I disagree about Golden Demon because you we hear all the time and and this is what the one of the most fun things you can do on on Facebook or on groups is ask the question uh no metallic or true metallic. And this will this will bring up a storm of things and opinions. Why those opinions are so um heisty is because they don't like the other one, right? Or they they don't understand it.

>> And I I don't think it has anything to do with with heavy metal. It has to to do with I don't know picking sides for a reason. But then >> that's a very good point. >> Why is not have to have a side? That's what I Sorry, Karen. >> That is a very good point. People do like picking sides. A lot of people >> I don't think so. Why um some people like to be tricked by the figure and like li liked it very smooth and some people like to see the paint and they they not only they are not bothered by the paint but they like it.

>> But these two people usually collide and argue about it. Right. Um because I guess they they try to put their opinion on on the other like in every single thing in humanity, right? >> Yeah. I found a really good uh allegory for the kind of these two sides, the binary way to view it, which relates to having played in a band and having played instruments. And anyone who's played an instrument can probably relate to this in a way. And it's essentially it's technique versus creativity. And some people will, and this isn't uh this doesn't relate to like every metal versus everything else, because even like within heavy every metal styles, there's a lot of things that people focus on differently, but basically you have people in this hobby who think that technique is the shit. And these people are the same people that will listen to uh Ingvan or fucking um Dream Theater or whatever.

And they're like the the guy is playing really fast. There's loads of notes. It's really really choppy and and and slick and it sounds uh difficult to play. That's a great player. And then on the other hand, you'll have pe people who are like, I don't care if it's difficult to play. I I I want to I want it to to have a swing and a bounce and be funky and have that feel to it. >> And I' I found this in music all the time. It's like >> true. >> And it'll never be as simple as just one person and another person, but it's it's interesting how you can have like that kind of to me quite narrow mindset when it comes to technique and just be like, well, look, it's I've learned the thing to I can play it really fast. I can play it perfectly. It's like, yeah, but I'm not really feeling anything. paint doesn't sound interesting or maybe the song that you and your stupid friends have written is is just a bad song. It doesn't >> sound cool. And it's the same I I I see the same thing in venture painting where the sort of a lot of these kind of heavy metal disciples I guess will be and I think maybe this is your pet peeve right

now is where where smoothness where the technique becomes the whole thing >> where it's all smooth and it's all perfect and and it's if you can make it look perfect and you can get these transitions perfectly smooth then that's the paint job done. That's the whole model. that's all you're trying to do. >> But that and that's again that comes into what I was talking about with these different bars is like if if you just completely ignore that but you've got everything else and it looks fucking cool and you've had a cool idea, I'm totally behind it. Yeah, >> that but that is where heavy metal is more commented on the majority of people and I think that's where the negative connotations come in because you have more people saying fuck that's the smoothest thing I've ever seen.

>> Exactly. >> Rather than that's a that's the best piece I've ever seen. >> Right. And that's that was actually my moment when I realized not those conversations but that's what people were aspiring to was when I realized I can't do that anymore. And I'm like, I used to do that. And I think I only used to do that because I only my only frame of reference was GW and heavy metal. >> So I had no other I of course that's what I'm going to chase cuz that's what everyone else is doing. [snorts] >> So that's why I think >> Yeah.

And I think as far as your own personal journey and trying to develop your skill, um, like I remember the first time I saw it was probably literally the first time I saw an heavy metal model in hand where I could properly get a look at it. And it was really crazy how much more neat and smooth it was than anything I could paint at the time. Mhm. >> And that was an important thing for me was that specific I you know it's it's technically it's so much better than I thought it was cuz I've just seen pictures and it made me want to push myself and get better in that. But if that was like I'm happy that I'm not still there if that makes sense that I'm still just chasing like a finer highlight and a smoother blend cuz it and it doesn't mean in any way that oh I've uh I've got the black belt of heavy metal now I'm done. It's I'm I'm still trying to get technically better, but I've also realized that that that's just not going to kind of make me satisfied.

I'm just I'm not going to be completely happy with only that. I also want to develop all these other skills like composition, like conversions. And it helps a lot to look at, you know, which painters I actually am impressed by, which work I'm interested in. Um, yeah, another meter bit. Sorry. >> I I would add thing on top. that is I don't I don't think um the technical aspect of painting is just bl it's just smoothness or or cit because I think that's just a choice of one part of the technicality if >> for example a a really precise and you know have you ever seen um Kopinsky sketch >> he he sketches deliberate lines really perfect like he he obviously he's a master of it. So he when he draws with a with a pen, the first line is so precise.

>> And this is this is technical. This is very technical because he >> Yeah, of course. Of course >> he it's a very deliberate line. >> The same happens with painting. A very deliberate brush stroke that fits the purpose exactly and you don't have to do anything is extremely hard because you need to know exactly what it has to be the >> Yeah. Like impressionist painting is still very technical and requires a lot of skill. >> Exactly. >> So yeah, it's it's a very specific choice of the technicality. >> No, absolutely. And to use the musical allegory, I mean, playing something that is just like funky and repetitive is also really difficult technically. So, it it makes sense. But I just think that that less impressive.

>> Yeah, you get what I was saying with with technique that it becomes quite >> cuz because you only realize that those things are hard the better you get. >> The better you get, the worse you realize you are basically. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> Um >> Yeah. And you see these kind of there's the you know there's a lot of like illustrators um uh that have again styles that might do like line drawings that do really they look like kids you know stick figures or and you realize when you look at it like that's actually really really precise work and requires a lot of thought process and and a good kind of muscle memory to know exactly what you're doing. And like you say, Jamie, you only really start to appreciate that when you start to do something like that yourself.

>> And realize how bad or hard it is. Like basing. >> Yeah. >> For example. >> Yes. Do we do we only appreciate something if it's hard to do? >> No. But more often than not, >> because then they've they've refined and been good at it. And and hard is relative, right? Like what I find hard >> that's the most important thing. Yeah. Yeah. Is you what you do now are now. The things you find hard aren't in my frame of reference and the things of course. >> So it's like it's only hard for you see something you're not going to be impressed because you've done that and you know how to do it. It the veneer of of impress being impressed is gone. So the things you'll be impressed now are probably more um not uh what's that thing like >> the thoughts behind it cool scenes rather than some technical ability or some amazing paint job. you'll be like, "Shit, that has inspired me." So, >> so I think you're more things that inspire you are going to be more impressive >> than things that are technically

difficult. The things you find difficult are going to be more different from what I find difficult. >> No, no, that's certainly for sure. >> But it's I mean, off the top of my head, yeah, I'm I'm I'm more impressed by things that I that I think are hard, but like exactly like Jamie is saying, what I think is hard might be completely different from someone else. I'm far more impressed by ideas and conversions and composition. >> The question was poorly. >> No, no, no. It's not it's not it's a great question. It's like is that is that why we're impressed by something? Is that why we like something? >> No. The question was if it was if it was hard to do like like technical difficult and and I think that the the going back to oh shit that's so smooth it's amazing. It is more prevalent in heavy metal style communities. I guess >> they'll say I'm like like >> but that's what I used to chase as well.

I wanted to do this stuff. I'd spend hours on it. The irony I still think of this whole thing is I was happier back then >> because I knew what I was doing, right? But but I think that and it's only natural is because you know less and the first the first thing that you find is technique because you can do shit. So that's why most people look for this because it's the first time they find the the first obstacle they find, right? And and the problem or the it's not a problem but the the sadness sometimes comes from that people staying there and not seeing that there's so much more outside of >> doing something smooth or or well neat or >> it's only sad if you know the other side. I guess it's it's it's a very like Yeah. Yeah. Like I I I think I think this conversation can't have a close other than we've now established >> that actually every metal's not bad. No

one said it was. The other styles aren't bad. They're just styles. So there's just one part of a big stick. The sad part for me maybe is that I was stuck in that mode and thinking I had to do something like this rather than I can do what I want. But it's a journey and you'll get there and without this you wouldn't be there. >> To be fair, I never understood what you meant with uh with fire >> with not wanting to to to do that. Uh so I I never understood like uh or or you

know your reasoning behind it but maybe now I do when when >> understand [laughter] >> I don't want to do what what do you mean >> when you said that you didn't want to do the y metal style >> I see >> because uh it was it was too hard or something like that >> I I never understood the thought process behind it but I think I may do now because you don't want to be restricted by If if we define that as unrestricted and restricted. >> Yeah, I guess so. That is a good way to look at it.

>> I can also say another thing a bit contentious maybe and maybe a bit condescending. But I I feel like sometimes when I see people dismiss the heavy metal style from for their own work and they say no, I don't want to do or actually it has nothing to do with the heavy metal style. They don't usually do that. But it's like basically what I'm saying is don't use style as an excuse to paint something badly because when you paint something badly and it can be a technical thing like it can look really fucking rough or even a color scheme or you just or or what I see a lot is like uh the back of this model or the entire underside of this model is black and they're like that's style that's my style I think. Is it though?

>> Is it though or is a bit shit? >> It's just my style though. Yeah, you can say that about anything and and honestly it's like if that's if you want to tell yourself first of all why are you making excuses like I don't care if you know if that's like yeah if that's your way of explaining why you haven't in my opinion like properly rendered the thing you're painting and I think are now you can you probably agree that there's a difference between like not painting something and painting it as if it's in shadow. >> Yeah, absolutely. 100 million. >> To me I Yeah, thanks. And I uh I feel like I've come across a lot of people's just saying, "No, that's that's that pictorial style. That's that are now style >> where I'm just leaving a lot of the model unpainted cuz it's in shadow." And I'm like, "You have no idea what you're talking about." >> And and it's okay. You don't have to be as good as our now, but like I don't think that's the style. It happens also with something that is misunderstood or are and used as an excuse is the focal point. I'm not doing I'm not doing this because then it would change the focal

point. It's like no >> if the figure is shit because that decision that decision is wrong. >> If you are um you know this cannot over overcome overtake everything else uh the the focal like I'm going to distract because this so this no metallic has to be shit. >> Does it though? I mean does it? >> Yeah. Exactly. And so that's the kind of if we can be a bit caddyy about it, it's like don't uh you can kid yourself all you want, but if you think that you don't need to practice or your piece is perfect the way it is and you're calling that style, good for you. Um might not agree.

>> There's always nuances. That's the thing you can always do. Art is so complex and there's so many decisions that when you have like for example in this particular case right we are saying we have this thing and and it it's uh catching attention in some in somewhere that it's it's not supposed to. Is it is it better to leave it boring or is it better to enhance everything else and make everything cool and even cool even cooler or more impressive or more I catchy than the other thing. So it's not about it's about optics right what do we choose to focus on we choose to go on the on the low effort but not I'm not saying that in a like or or or there's better ways to to achieve that that it probably will be a lot more time consuming a lot more difficult but it is probably uh a better road >> I see you very uh Jamie

Yeah. No. >> Is your mind blown, Jamie? >> No, I think what I've learned is >> heavy metal isn't the baddie here at all. >> Thanks. >> The baddie here is No, I I do think that it it there's pros and negatives of of the what GW has done over the last 40 years. Basically, [clears throat] >> um I think the the the pros are they've created this fucking hobby basically. I think without maybe there was another company >> another company that would have done the same blah blah blah but ultimately yeah they pushed a lot of us into this right >> um they all got us excited to paint most of us anyway from the start um and we read the Golden Demon magazines and we loved it and then they stopped and we're like what the fuck is wrong with this company um and then on the negative side like I think that they had something in the past where they were promoting other brands other paints that, you know, they were in photos, they never cared. And then they had this realization that actually we're a giant corporation.

We're only gonna do this, this, this, and this. So, we're gonna >> go out of our way to make sure that other people aren't exposed to the other sides of the hobby. >> And and and and actually saying that out loud, it just I don't understand that at all because if you can paint another style, you don't leave GW behind. You just have another fucking tool to to paint stuff with. You know what I mean? like >> promoting this style. I remember like 5 years ago, 10 years ago, less less so. You had um loads of guys from the heavy metal team doing tutorials in different styles and you they were featuring other models that weren't their style. So, it's just such a weird decision because you can easily have someone like our now who paints his own stuff and enters Golden Demon in his different style. I don't see why that would diminish from their sales. It doesn't I don't it doesn't I don't understand that logic.

>> I think it's a lack of a Yeah, sorry. I I think it's a lack of a commitment towards what you're saying rather than a a commitment to to the opposite. I think that they uh they have these warmer community articles where they've sent out uh preview copies of models to people and a lot of those don't really paint like the heavy metal team. Uh so that's about the closest we'll get. But you're right, it used to be that I really used to love the um like heavy metal curated pages in Codexes and White Dwarfs where it wasn't heavy metal painters per se, but stuff that supposedly they they kind of picked from all kinds of random people and it was a great place to see other styles and just that sort of unlimited creativity. So yeah, >> and the irony >> it would the irony is like um most of the people that enter Golden Demon will paint in that style cuz they're exposed to that and they're reading the magazines and they love that style, right?

>> So you only get you'll only get a few outliners and that will change it and anyway that that is like a whole another thing. But yeah, what I've learned is every metal is just another style. They're prescribed to do it because they want to do it. it's their company and uh you have people inside those the styles and outside that style that lock horns a bit get a bit annoyed at each other and that's what creates this exactly like um polarized views. >> Can [clears throat] I throw another discussion topic uh that it might ignite something? I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe it's just boring. But because we had the feedback a few times of not going too deep in things. Maybe >> you want to fight about something. >> Yeah. Like completely. >> So I was I was thinking and we agree in in the restricted of a style, right? Of the restrict restrictive aspect of a style. >> Mhm. So when it comes to judging, how can we judge a restricted thing against an unrestricted thing?

How and I'm not particularly talking about dietal. I am really, but but it also would apply to anything else. But well, we we completely ignore the the prescripted style. But like if if something's painted in uh heavy metal style in this case, then that's not a it's not a benefit. It's not a crutch. It's not an excuse. We look at the piece for what it is. That's that's what it's supposed to be. Exactly. And my point goes actually there that if if we are judging if we are judging them um equally why how can we treat them equally in a in a way when one is painting with one hand behind their backs in a in a way if you know what I mean. Maybe not.

>> You mean heavy metal painting painting is painting like with one hand behind your back? >> Yes. because it's limiting creativity. >> Because it's limiting themselves creativity maybe it's not the correct I wouldn't say that they're limiting but maybe I mean you've been a you've been a judge on painting competitions. How would you approach it? >> That's how that's how I would approach it. If you are limiting your your artistic choices then you are limiting your artistic reach and then if you are limiting your artistic reach you know it's your choice but why why would I make my eyes blind to that fact that you are limiting your choices you know what I mean as a judge as a >> by that by That it sounds like you're saying that an heavy metal piece will all automatically be rated lower from

you. >> No, no, no, no, no, not at all. Because you think it's limited artistically. It does sound like that. >> Does sound like that. >> It it it it but all styles >> for example, let's let's remove every metal style from this equation. Yeah. Let's talk with another style. a very um uh very sketchy style. >> Mhm. >> How do I judge this against someone else that can do the sketchy thing and also render more? How can I how can I not say this piece is restricting themselves to something? How can I make it compete with with another piece that is doing a lot more?

>> If you know what I mean. >> Well, yeah. I I I kind of know what you mean. I just I think in that sense it's a bit obstinate to uh pretend that the heavy metal style isn't a thing or that the pictorial style or sketchy style like like it's we're not pretending that that that's not a thing. But you can definitely look at something and say this is great but it's lacking something. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And if that's your definition of the heavy metal style, I think that's a bit reductive. But I would I could I can see someone saying that. That might be why I didn't win anything in Monte. It wouldn't make sense for me if they looked at that and instead of saying we're going to punish this entry because it's painted like James Workshop's stuff that I don't think they did that but it might be this is lacking something that doesn't have quite the extra >> an extra uh flare or you know uh >> it makes perfect sense actually like what you're saying on now what you're what you're saying makes absolute logical sense. you you you've got a set of um targets or or I was going to say

demographics, but like you've got a set of rules that you want to adhere to, right? And you're you're having every style. So, you want you want everything to be accounted for. And by proxy, GW style is is lacking some of those things that you would have in your thing. >> And this the same has gone for GW where they don't want these other styles in. So you get penalized there >> sometimes. Again, I think that's that's we're trying not >> let's say last year. >> Yeah, we're trying not to assume that that's supposed to be the case that only heavy metal style models win golden demon and we have to kind of assume that that's the the way we want it is the way it should be and that's where that's why we assume it's going to be like that. I think for me a better comparison would be I thought about this when I've uh judged competitions. Sometimes someone will paint something really well, but the choice of model means that they've >> uh got sort of fewer opportunities to paint something really cool. So, let's say you're doing a space marine and

instead of doing a captain with a sword and a bearhead and a cape, you just do a regular guy with a helmet and a gun and no cape. That's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But you've sort of omitted the opportunity. you've you've essentially neglected to add all those extra things. And I wouldn't tell that person, oh, you should have freehanded something in this gun or like you should have made this model way better than it is. It's more like maybe you should have chosen a model that gave you more opportunities to do something

cool. >> Uh, and I guess that's kind of what you're saying with the style is like you should have just gone outside of this comfort zone of yours. But I I wouldn't say that. I think it's uh I think it's more like just try to do the best you can with any model, whatever that is. Like if you're I I don't think I ever really see that again that sort of on and off switch where someone's like, "Oh, you've only painted it as as the heavy metal style. Well, that sucks. You could have done so much more with it." But I do also think with my own work sometimes I think well this is a bit too formulaic and uh um it it's a little what's the word? I can tell that I'm a little afraid >> maybe. I see.

>> Yeah. >> Well well I think that um >> you've got you've got or the way I see it let's say you've got a scale and then uh you've got two painters and one is a painter 10 and the other is a painter let's say five. So 10 is better and the 10 painter takes an every metal model and the five takes every metal model. Every metal style, the five takes the three whatever Monty style just for sake of argument. The the 10 is still going to be better than the five, right? The style like the style is is he will definitely be better cuz he will have painted more. He understands more.

>> Yeah. But at the same time, if you take the styles, the five guy has much more room to work with in terms of >> Yeah, that's that's literally my point. >> Yeah. >> But would you then are now would you rate that model higher? >> No. No, I would not. If it's a five, it's a five. What I mean is because you you in a competition is a comparison competition. So you you basically compare >> and if if one piece has less things to offer >> it's easily >> it will pale in comparison with other pieces that offer more.

>> So it's not about >> that's it basically >> that's probably yeah that's it. It's that those restrictions that you want to play [clears throat] with in a competition with against people that is not restricting may obviously play a part >> and should we and and this is actually one topic of conversation when judging is should we should we make eyes blind to th those choices and I'm not saying that we should or we should not but >> this is a big question because Yeah, >> these things that they are restricting to um is it what does it what does it mean in comparison with other people and you know I'm literally not not giving my opinion. It's just a big question that we have.

>> What I think a good a good example of that which I' I've seen a lot of times I've heard people say is they I've literally heard people say to me, "Oh, I'm obviously going to paint this in NMM because the judges want that. that's going to give me a better chance. >> And I'm like, what? That's bullshit. Like, no, no judge is going to prefer an imam unless it's well done. [clears throat] >> Why does why is that not obvious to you? You can't just choose a a way to paint something in a style and then assume that a judge is going to go, "Wow, damn, he tried his best with this terrible animat." That's that you're you're making a very good point here >> cuz I think and and I've made that choice and that's kind of what I was talking about with like being afraid and the com the comfort zone is I've I've thought like shouldn't I take this opportunity to try to do an MMA and try and make it really good. And like for the last entry I did it was a bunch of space marines and I thought that's probably going to be too much work to get it to the level I want it to be.

Whereas, if I paint it with metallic paints, I can really try to do a a good job with that. Not to sell that short or be like, "No, I'll just do the simple way out, but like I still want to push myself and make really good looking metallics, but with something I've done before and have more more experience with." Um, but again, that's the only thing that matters is how well can you pull it off. If you use transfers on a shoulder pad or a a shield instead of freehanding, yeah, you're you're I I'm not going to say you're cheating, but you're using a method that's much easier. But still, it only matters what it looks like. It only matters if you do it really well. I mean, Albert used the transfer on his uh slayer sword winner, which was the exactly the right thing to do. It looks perfect.

you if if we extrapolate this this that you are talking about it's exactly the same thing we were talking about with true metallic and no metallic the [snorts] true metallic has a lower ceiling than the metallic and if you have the the no metallic literally has so like a vast infinite almost choices to do stuff while the true metallic doesn't. So if we if we have to um fight one against each other on the same level, most likely the non metallic will will win because they have so much more ceiling to go up and up. You know what I mean?

And I think it's the the perfect extrapolation to to a style. >> But again, as long as you can do it really well, that's that's the thing. And I think and I think it's there's there's it's worth like the reason why I can feel a bit defensive about uh TMM I guess is that ceiling being like higher than most people think. And even then I you know I don't feel like I'm kind of done experimenting with it yet and and trying to make it look good. But I also know that that is absolutely an excuse for me not to practice NMM. So >> yeah, I and I do actually agree with you that as much as you can do with metallic paints, NMM you can do more with and you can do um I don't know. Yeah, whatever you were saying.

You can do anything with it. You can change it in so many ways and and have it uh play with other colors and other textures in a lot of different ways. That's um definitely worth practicing and getting good at. So yeah, again like never assume that choosing that style is going to give you a gold star, but if you do it really well, then uh there's there's crazy things you can do with it. >> But yeah, almost everyone can't do it well, which is why it's so >> pretty >> impressive when you see it done well. >> Also, most of people won't know when it's done well or not, honestly, because like you'll be like, "Fuck, that's an amazing Eminem." But it doesn't look real in brackets at all. Well, I guess they they will not know the difference between great and amazing or or you know, but between bad and good >> way to put it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. True. That

well shit 2 hours 1 hour 52 minutes. We wasted the first eight minutes on me doing intros. >> Our listeners our listeners ate good this week. Let's just say it. Like this is a this is meat and potatoes and a salad. not vegetarian. They um Oh, hold on. I don't want to taste it. >> There's a Sunday roast with different meats. >> Yeah, you get the whole meal. >> I'd like some >> You've taken a nap after this episode. >> Yeah, I mean I have taken several naps during the episode. >> Uh >> unless you're in a car like our friend Jason and pull over and then take a nap.

That reminds me, not related, but we have been getting some very tasty hate mail >> in the form of comments in the comments on YouTube. I will quickly read you um one of them. >> What exactly are you guys talking about? >> You can't even point your finger on what you don't like about this new sculpt. In fairness to this twat, he goes into great detail and explains why he thinks we're shit. So, hats off to him. It's a genuine comment. He starts off with some some outlandish >> personal is is it I didn't read this commenting it's legit. It's it's it's also bullshit argument. He says that the Viper is based on the Harley Quinn equivalent since that one is based on the dark elder equivalent which is based on the classic Viper.

>> Now I don't disagree. I I don't agree with that statement but he's backing it up. He he shitous us which is like fine and then he's given us the reasons why we're dickheads. Well, us, you say us, but it's you. But yeah. Okay. [laughter] >> We're a team. We are a collective. We are the mini matters, right? And he >> Viper on the Viper discussion, I think we were all in we were actually all in agreement. I think I like it more, but I think that it looks too too little like the old one. >> Yeah. And that's why he says, "You guys are talking. You're on crack." Yeah.

He's not saying I'm the only one who doesn't like it now. Okay. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But not to bring up a dead horse. So yeah, he goes on to to to longer and I I said I was going to do a segment on this and that's this now, but I can't be bothered to back up what I was going to say with images. But anyway, there's an old illustration by Jess Goodwin 1989 where um there is an elder with a rose, okay, in the craft world with a pyramid and they have a vehicle there. Okay, it's it's like um it's like one of the land speededers from uh Star Wars. And that is the design of the Harley Quinn jet bike or transport.

>> Yeah, >> I disagree that it's based on the Dark Elder one. I think there are strong strong similarities though shapewise. >> So yes, >> I mean as they should, right? >> Yeah, kind of. Um, and the Viper is clearly not one of those transport vehicles. It's very different. That one's a transport. Okay, it's also an attack vehicle. But anyway, fuck it. The problem I think with the Viper is that you have a very extremely super iconic artwork of a Viper that it's super cool and then the fact that that >> I mean I don't care about that. Do I? I >> Yeah. Yeah, you do. You have like the original, don't you?

>> No, no, I'm saying yeah, I have the originals, but >> but I'm I'm actually backing you up like that. Yeah, we're talking about why it doesn't look like that >> artwork and that's why >> I like the artwork. I like the vehicle, >> right? >> Yeah. >> I I wanted the artwork cuz I like the Viper. >> Okay, fine. [laughter] >> Um, >> if that artwork didn't exist, I I don't think that that there would be because I I got the artwork later. >> I'm not saying you I'm not saying you I know you are a very strange human being.

So, but >> I I gave a reply, but it's wishy-washy. I didn't bother rereading it. It might be bullshit. But anyway, look, the point is I'm allowed to not like the vehicle. So, Mag 40 ketto 416, fuck you. However, I do appreciate the comment and genuinely I think you make good points. The next >> to be fair, I I would love if we had real like hard hateful comments in every in every >> every episode. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, share, comment, and be a cunt. >> Be be Yeah. Be like, share, comment, be a cunt. Get political if you want >> and personal. Especially personal.

>> Personal would be good. You bald cunt. However, that is sexual harassment. Now, um, no. Next comment. What nonsense? Full stop. So, grammar is important to him and that's it. Just what wants it. >> What nonsense? He doesn't agree with the This is all Viper video. This is all it's on the Viper. Oh, so this is the most Sorry. You made a separate Yeah, we made like a short or something and it's just to do with why we don't like the Aldar or you >> I've been chopping up our videos and releasing. I get the whole episode >> weird to comment on a two-hour episode with what nonsense. On the other hand, our like the perfect tagline, we should put that on a t-shirt.

>> Like look, >> we do not think we will put that on a t-shirt actually >> like [snorts] idiot listeners. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And we know they're idiots cuz they're listening, >> right? >> Yeah. If anyone was unsure why we keep calling you fools, like you're listening to these words right now as I'm saying them. So, jokes's on you. >> Exactly. And if you're still here, literally you're >> point. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, >> I love Warhammer, but I hate Games Workshop.

That's it. >> Well, that's a strong opinion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and he's he whoever does this knows how to change. The hate is in bold capitals and italics. >> Brilliant. >> Bold capitals and italics. God damn. But I hate King's Workshop. >> Yeah. Nothing wrong. >> In a way. >> Yeah. Yeah. We hate some things they've done. They're winning me back. I'll be honest. Slowly. They are winning me back. But there there are some decisions where I just go, "What?" But they're getting there. I I do think they're getting there. Um, I'm gonna get to the point quoting me lying scammer.

>> That was scammer. >> That was the best comment I think I've read in 10 years because I said, "I'm going to get to the point 4 hours later after um a >> lying scammer." >> Okay. >> Yeah, that is the most accurate comment I've ever read. I was I was really really I laughed. I don't think I can convey. Also, the guy who said, "What exactly are you guys talking about?" Four likes. So, obviously the community thinks we're pieces of shit. Um, and however, we have got four subscribers from that video, which is weird cuz that's like 66% of our listenership.

Maybe they are just >> It is funny that we've got one saying >> one comment saying that we're pieces of shit and then four people liking that. That's 90% of our listeners. That's basically all of them. >> I mean, it does make me wonder. I I I think somebody has paid a bot to um add listens to our videos. >> Surely an explanation. >> Well, it does. We're getting into the realms of not being on a podcast with this conversation, but um we we for we we go through little dips and troughs where we lose like 100 subscribers and there's no correlation to the videos as well. But anyway, >> yeah, like and subscribe >> and then I hit the Should I stop?

>> What the whole thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. You guys done? I'm done. I'm fucking out. I'm >> Yeah, let's just roll. I was happy to close it. Good. I mean, I had fun and um >> we missed a lot of the We wait, we didn't No, we didn't do a Dr. Brush Lab, but we did do [laughter] >> But we did do uh what's it called? >> Day. No, no, we also we also did not have >> Would you faction feud? >> Yes. But we know that we we've got some results have come in from the >> So, we are going to have Faction Feud next week and probably for this this there's 30 questions on there.

>> Oh, yeah. Oh, nice. >> Get go if you haven't filled it in, please go and fill in the faction food so we can have a game show next week >> which is in the Discord. No, >> on YouTube and on >> YouTube as well. Okay. >> And it went out to the newsletter. Uh the email. >> Okay. Oh, we have a newsletter. What the fuck? >> Um and fuck, what is it? Um ah just so everyone knows, I'm going to try and progressively make our thumbnails look more and more ridiculous. but dare I say retarded. Okay. Now, Arnau and Martin don't want to make themselves look quite as stupid as I'm willing to make ourselves look. So, I will be putting my face on more thumbnails.

>> I mean, we are all here for the your stupid faces. >> No, but it what what it ends up being, and it already is, is every thumbnail has my fucking face on it. >> That's fine, >> but it's fine by me. >> It's not fine by me because then people would think it's my podcast. >> Well, it is your podcast. >> It's basically your podcast. It's literally if I if we are all we are all NPCs in your world like we >> the entire fucking world. >> I I I would m anyway I'll see you later. [laughter]