Sketching the Right Way!

Right, guys. This This is just to say that just knowing that you're putting things in boxes can let you open them if you need. And the same way there are a lot of bands now that do really really creative, interesting, amazing music, we don't know about them because we mostly know about the super commercial stuff.

>> Mini Matters, a miniature painting podcast, >> season 4, episode 4, the joy continues with Mini Matters podcast, myself, Jamie Arnau, and Martin. Um, I don't think any girls have the name Martin, so I don't think that's um >> I think they do. >> Martine in like my name with an E at the end. It would be Martine. >> Definitely in in France. >> Martina. Really? >> Martina. Yes. >> That's a whole extra N, right? And something like that. Um, well, I must say I'm I'm glad to be back. I'm I'm This is I'm a little bit I'm down. I'm I was trying to work it out before the episode like am I depressed? Am I just sad? Like, you know that feeling I always said I wanted?

>> Yeah, >> I think I've got it. Like, I just I was sitting down before the show and I was like, hm, >> something feels weird and I couldn't work out what it was and I I just I wasn't feeling any happiness anywhere. >> Yeah. I just I I was just like something there was it's like a it's like an empty a well a void of of of feeling that I was having like there was how do I explain it like it's good to see you guys >> don't have to explain it to me you know what I'm saying >> okay well well I just like maybe maybe I've got some sadness about how my project's going my task masters but I don't think >> but it could be passive like I also >> it it does influence a lot more than than we think these things when something is not working in my desk >> I I it do influence a lot in my my state of mind and my spirits

>> for sure 100% >> it's just I wouldn't maybe this is just a new me now and I just need to accept that I'm I'm basically a wimp you know and and art is affecting my my psyche. >> But this is that that's the best thing that could happen with your art is that it affects you. That's the whole point. I mean, uh, like with you are now, you're you're a mellow dude, but the fact that the creative thing that you do all day, every day affects you whether you're happy with it or not. That's probably the way it kind of should be, right?

>> I mean, it should be Yeah, I guess it should be for the sake of the of the art. >> You're supposed to give a fuck. Yeah, exactly. >> If you don't, difficult to to get somewhere, I guess. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The trade-off is that sometimes you're unhappy and and not just super excited all the time. >> So, you could almost say in a way that I'm becoming >> one of the world's best artists. Yeah. Because >> because I'm I'm feeling sad that my stuff is shit. >> Yeah.

>> It's it's literally the only the only explanation. I agree. >> Yeah. I honestly I was trying to I was genuinely trying to work out. >> Yeah. Well, >> to be fair and and then we you you could play the task master single if you want because we are getting into it. >> Well, I can't cuz I haven't set up production value. >> It's all right. The production value is not >> get that fucking job done there, mate. That's the task. >> That's very good. >> Nice. Yeah. >> Um, >> well, I did voice. >> But the intonation was quite all right.

>> Maybe we don't need the G. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Carry on. Shut the fuck up. >> Um, I finished my task masters. >> Oh, shit. >> And I'm not happy at all. >> Oh, nice. >> But I'm not happy because I think it could be awesome. >> And it's not because I did it uh quickly. So, >> so you did it quickly. >> You know what I mean? >> So, you did do it quickly and it's not that's not the reason why it's shit. >> I mean, if it was shit or or no, if it was not perfect, but the the the outcome was just as expected. For example, with a with a kilan. The kilan, it was perfectly expected what I will get. And even if it's not amazing, it's yeah, it's it's okay. it fits the thing and that's it.

But this one has a lot of potential and the fact that this not properly developed is like oh fuck this could be good and and now I have this feeling of >> raise my hand here. >> You you're in control of this. I don't understand like what's happened here. What what did you Was it you rushed it and you were like let's get it out the way or >> I mean I mean I have to leave to to the US in 10 days, right? So >> I have >> That's a long time. Like >> I know but it's not like I only live for the trans I have a lot more things to do.

>> So um I was trying to get it out of the way in a way even if I'm I had fun and then if I have time I will improve upon it. But I'm not sure if I can. >> So you're basically saying we're the same is is where you're going with this. Like we're both struggling because so we we're both on a level in a way. Martin, I'll just give you a quick anecdote. Okay. And the listeners and we do have so this is this is we you guys can't see but we do have that we're in the intro section of the episode right now in the bottom whatever is right hand corner, left hand corner if you're doing my shoulders. So, we can talk now for as long as we like and people will know we're still in the intro, right?

>> Yeah. >> So, they can go themselves >> if they're confused. >> We haven't gotten to the actual discussion about Taskmasters yet. This was just an update on our Now's live connected to Jamie's potential uh >> depression. >> Yeah, a shortlived depression. I guess I I'm feeling so much better now. But um I >> also I think like I had a bit of work to do and I didn't get it all done and like Anyway, >> did you want to do your anecdote? >> Yes. What was it? What were you talking about? Oh, yeah. Right. Right. Right. So mine I'll set you the scene. Okay. I've spent two days doing this task masters on one guardian. Right. I' I've I've done some soulsearching now since then.

But but it was it was absolutely dog shit. Okay. And and I told our now this and he goes, "No, I don't think it is. just send me it. Right? So I sent it to it. Silence >> and he was like, >> "Yeah, maybe you should try something else." Now, he didn't want to admit, right? But there was no subtly. It It was objectively fucking awful, right? It was chalky. The lighting there was, but he still didn't slate me. Like I think if if you or Ann Arnell sent me that photo, I would be quite I would be quite honest. I'd be like, "Wow, I didn't even know you could produce something that bad." Like, like I think I think Tina might do something better than what that model was. So, yeah, that the the antidote is that even in like complete dire straits, he's still he's still your man. He's still he's still like I'm not going to slap you around the face here.

I'm just going to deliver a nice soft message, >> right? >> I'll share you the photo. >> Yeah, by all means. Um, so >> yeah. Why didn't you, by the way? >> Why didn't I slap him? >> Just share the photo to me. >> Oh, >> you sound like you're in a toilet, aren't I? >> It was what? >> No, you sound like you're in a toilet right now. >> Don't you think so, Martin? I mean, we don't need to do this on the podcast, I guess, but like, >> he sounds tiny. Hold on. I'll pause. >> I'm uh Yeah, I'm okay.

>> Now, that is better. Indeed, it was on the right mic. So, this does lead in. Were you in the middle of talking about something? I know. >> No. Why didn't you say >> I asked you uh why you didn't send me the photo of your guard of your car? >> Oh, why I didn't send you it? That >> it's not I'll put it in the Discord. Okay. It's not worth sending mine. It's It's not It's not like It's not something you lead with. It's like you go on a first date and you're like, "Oh, actually, um you know, I I we the bed." You don't start with that information. You get them, you get them up and they they slowly you go and then eventually you stay the night and then you piss the bed and you're like, "Oh shit, did you just piss the bed?" >> No, you would you you let >> anyone can relate to that. So yeah, again, we were saying um I still want to see it, but also I guess we'll come back to it through >> the rest of the task masters. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean it leads on quite nicely, but I do have a lot of other intro shit to say, so I'll say that. >> Please do. So, a a monumentous moment for the channel. So, Alonso Algrades um this feels fine. They um we we shared a YouTube channel, right? So, that's where this channel came from. So, originally it was Miniature Art TV um and he produced for maybe a year or two and then we piggybacked in with him. We released videos and he released videos. Um, and yesterday he finally, and in fairness to him, he like he didn't really need to do this. He gave us the whole channel, right? So, he's he's officially slotted inside me and I have entered him and we have created a baby, which is this channel. Um, except that he's leaving now and I'm the father. So, I just want to say thanks to him for that because that's like 8,000 subscribers that he's given up and now he's having to start a new channel by

himself. Oh, but that's Banshee, by the way, for anyone who doesn't know. Um, >> yeah, if you didn't catch his last name correctly there, you might know him as Banshee, but there's not that many Alphonso in the in the game anyway, >> especially not with the surname Algorades. So, >> you want to try that or now? >> Nah. No. Um, yeah, he we basically had a call yesterday and he he transferred over and was just like, "Cheers." And I was like, "Thanks." And that was I mean, we we had a long conversation. He's got a tiny little back scratcher, like one of those, >> you know what I mean?

>> Living like king. >> Yeah. Right. Uh, and his studio, I've not seen his new studio, but it looks very, very good. Actually, it made me I'm not envious. happy for him, but also envious that like it's like a five room studio, like a shop. >> People that have studios, it's insane. >> Some Elon Musk bullshit. I don't get it. >> Rich cunts. Um, I still implore you guys to move to the country that I live in, which I won't say publicly for legal reasons. Um, but it would be cool, wouldn't it? >> Yeah.

>> Like anyway. Yeah. >> Imagine Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It makes no sense for either of us to live in the countries that we do. So I mean it's an ongoing topic of discussion. >> I kind of agree with that you know although your country Martin isn't shit it is >> isn't it? Yeah. >> Is it? >> No. It's pretty it's pretty fucking good just generally and compared to other countries. We've got an election coming up in a few months. So I'll get back to you. >> Okay. Rightwing. I guess everything's going right wing these days. >> It is. We might be a bit more fascisty after November. So then I might plug off the where you are, your secret um location.

>> Well, in the secret country that I live in, which is obviously the UK, um they >> they chancellor was voted in rightwing. Anyway, fuck that. We're still in the intro, so we can talk shit. Um 11 minutes >> longest intro. >> Get ready for that little >> power this icon has given me. I'm like, I don't feel guilty anymore. So what we've >> switch you can your your ears will perk up all the listeners and be like, damn, they've moved from the intro. Well, it doesn't also the time stamps I hope will correlate to um the thing at the bottom. >> Best case they will.

>> Not here to please our listeners. >> So, any any other intro shit that you guys want to talk news? Does anybody have any news? >> Absolutely not. >> I've got news. I'm pregnant. No. Um AI is really good. Fuck it. It's shit news. I'm pausing it. So, get that fucking job done. That is

task masters. Okay. And we are now in task masters as is defined and illustrated by the that thing there. God damn, this feels good. I'm not going to lie. You shouldn't really talk about how good your production value is. But by God, >> yes, you should. No one does. Everyone pretends like it just happens. >> I mean, we we've had a few comments all this time that we are a podcast about a podcast. So, I I think we we should honor that. and you know >> talk sometimes about the podcast also. >> Seinfeld is a show about nothing and we are a podcast about a podcast. I think we're breaking some ground here.

>> Yeah. >> Oh, now your voice sounds like pearly crystals now compared to the shit that we were listening to before. Um >> and we can see the pores in your face and the sparkle in your eyes. All this new equipment we have is like >> it's mind-blowing. It's pretty cool. >> 4K IMAX. >> You can see hairs right behind me. this task masters. So, Taskmasters, I have started my task masters. I now has finished his task masters. Martin, how are you doing? >> Mhm. Um, I've I've got a great idea.

>> You got 25 days left for fuck's sake. Like, >> yeah, I know. I know. I'm chilling. >> There's like It's not really >> I've been really really not uh excited to involve myself in this hobby for the last couple of weeks. >> That's you back in. >> Yeah. which it happens. >> It happens. But it's interesting. I've been like this close to completely quitting anything to do with painting forever. >> Yeah. And it's easy to define those those sort of snub judgments that you can make like life-changing things. It is as simple as I'm stopping and then it's gone. Do you know what I mean?

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I agree. I I have that a lot with like kind of like intimacy with your partner mine, you know, where I'll go, do you know what, love? I'm just going to pack it in. And she's like, "What?" And then I'll say, "Just I'm I'm tired of sex, you know, and then she says, "Are you?" And I'll say, "No, you're right. I'm not. Let's go." And then nothing happens. And we both >> But there was that little little lull in the in the middle of that sentence, right? Yeah. Yeah, >> sure. That happens all the time.

>> The reality is I ask every day multiple times and then she's like, "For fuck's sake, Jamie, the kids are here. For fuck's sake, Jamie, the kids are still here." And I'm like, "Yeah, but we could like give them TV and then go into like the I don't know, the fucking bathroom." And she's like, >> "So, for all for all our listeners, just quickly, um, if you notice that we've switched to the words task and masters at bottom, >> and if you thought that that would correspond to what we're actually talking about, you're a damn fool. and you found the wrong podcast. >> But but >> the thing is if we have to put the the the bullshit like every time >> there's going to be some tangents.

There's going to be some tangents. Jamie, asked me how I'm doing with my task masters and I'm trying to answer it. We're going on a little bit of a parenthesis about Jamie's sex life, but that's to be expected. >> I mean, it's natural, isn't it? >> Trying to update our listeners so they're, you know, what's actually going on. >> 15 year anniversary with me wife right now, actually. Right. 15. >> Yeah. 5. That's not right. Um, okay. Okay. Wait. Yeah. 15 years. So, um Oh, you can't I've updated the the the thing now and it says Jamie talks shit at the bottom. I have to tell you guys can't see that.

>> Ah, you can leave that for the whole Just >> How is that not the default? >> This is terrible. Right, let's jump back. Um, I'll save. Okay. So, that's >> I I like this idea for task masters. I think it's fun. And I have I've got an idea that I'm trying to elevate from the lowest possible effort to something I actually want to do. >> That's actually a very good idea and why Taskmaster works.

>> Yeah. Um I I I I know you guys have uh you've launched this idea. you've announced the whole concept of task masters as being very low uh not expectations but the demands are almost non-existent. >> Mhm. >> But if all I do is like pretty much unpainted plastic with mold lines that I've like put some paint in my mouth and spat on it will still be like that counts, you know? Are you telling? >> So, I'm going Yeah, I'm not going to do literally that, but it'll be very close to that. And And for the last one we did with the kilan, I started with like, what can I do with a killer cam that will literally take me 30 seconds and then I moved ever so slightly above that. And I'm trying to do the same with this one.

>> Yeah. >> And eventually at some point in the future, it would be cool to do a task masters where I actually care even just a little. >> In one, you you will come. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Or Martin, a little idea. You give the idea. >> That would be even better. Like an actual contribution. >> The fact that you you were >> Yeah. >> that far away from quitting. >> I I I'm sure there I'll definitely think of things that we can do that will be uh I I just like the uh uh it it should be more than just like paint a guy or do a thing. It needs to be something a little have a little twist to it. But I'll think about it. I'm sure there's stuff we can do. M I've got a great idea.

>> You ready? >> True. >> We all have to paint every metal star for one model. >> That would fuck our now in the face and I'd like to see it. >> I would I would fucking enjoy it. >> It'd be fun. >> Like, so one one thing that I struggled with, so I've learned some things. I just I just realized though, we're 18 minutes in and we haven't covered anything. Like I I I'm starting to Yeah. But what I mean is I'm agreeing with the listeners now. I think that the in this show >> they really deserve everything everyone that that really listens to the podcast like properly listens really deserve uh something like a medal or or I mean I I am I sometimes doubt that I could listen to the whole thing.

>> I couldn't. Are you having a laugh? This is dil. This is like the lowest denominating bullshit I think this so far this episode's been like 19 minutes. The clock is Anyway, look, this is me in my depressed state. All right, so it's fine. I just got, you know, I won't apologize cuz it's their own fault for listening, honestly. But it's it's not great, is it? So, >> she wants me to wrap up or >> Well, we'll get to something we'll get to something really good. We're not trying. The episode is going to be awesome. Just give us a few more minutes. I'm just going to stab this nut. Okay.

>> Why would be great if you stabbed yourself on the >> Yeah, in the arm again. >> This this I bought a new arm and this one is magnetic as well. >> And you didn't you stab yourself with a with a scalpel in the arm last time or that wasn't during the broadcast. That was >> No, that was when I was about to have sex once in my >> That's when you were about to That's what it was. Yeah, of course. Sorry. One time my wife said, "Um, do you want to get and I she said, "Do you want to have sex?" And I said, "Yes." And I ran into the bedroom, right? Stripped completely. Got into bed, right? And then she came in. She's like, "What are you doing?" I go, "You said, "Do you want to have sex?" She goes, "No, can you get the socks?" That was really disappointing cuz at that point, she didn't even say, "Okay, let's have sex." It was just, "I need to get socks. We're leaving." Anyway, the podcast's not getting better, is it?

So, Taskmasters, right? So, this episode, okay, sorry, this Taskmasters, I sat down and for two nights I painted um and I've worked out slightly the problem. I was trying to do N&M. Okay. Is this right? I think this is right on um on my model. >> Is that where you fucked up? cuz I I think our >> it was would have said that the NMM isn't totally solid and instead he he just uh basically disowned you. >> No, no, I need to fuck me. I need to show you. Hold on. I'll pause it. Uh I have uploaded that now to the Discord in Taskmasters and I did give no context.

So people might look at that and laugh thinking that's sincere. So >> okay, >> in fact, let me upload where I was. Oh shit, if I do that, everyone can see the task. I'll upload quickly. Fuck. I should pause it again, shouldn't I? Jesus Christ. So, the second the the second photo I posted is the first day and then the second the first photo is the >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And >> the updated of the of the first one. Yeah. Okay. >> So, I had it in my head. I I quite I I wanted to challenge myself, right? And and from that perspective, I have done that spectacularly. Um because what it's ended up doing, it's reminded me that I cannot paint. Now I've I've I've I've taken a step back from this original um thing and and it's it's less basically it's like it's literally that is starting again. You know what I mean?

>> I don't know if you could save what I've done there. Like >> I I mean I I assure you with three brush strokes it's it's fixed. >> Your brush strokes or my brush strokes? >> Well, it doesn't matter. Yeah. The thing is you need to know what what strokes and that fight is to find them. But if you quit the fight, you have to do all over again and then find them again. You know what I mean? >> So the sketch is not about uh solving it like this. It's about having a platform to be able to fight it. >> I don't disagree. Okay. But you have to have skill to be able to do that.

No, you have to you have to have skill to to fight it quickly and and solve it quickly. >> But a a sketch could be a a threehour fight of just changing volumes. You know, it it's not if you don't know, you just you just do and redo and change and you know that's that's what sketch is. A sketch is not a process that you start and then you finish.

>> A sketch is a a process that you just anarchic and random and >> but oh fuck I get so the the I think I could apply in my head this is a sketch of what you're saying of something that I roughly know how to do. But for something like in in quotes as advanced as this that I have no real skill in, I feel like if I'm I'm I pissing in the wind basically because I'm fighting an uphill battle. These are real.

>> No, the thing is and and that's I'm not assuming that this is what happened, but a sketch is not I do a random brush stroke and if it feels right, I leave it. It's it has to have a lot of intentionality behind of of the brushstroke. So doing things randomly and and see what what feels right. That doesn't work because then the fight could be days. You know, you you need to think a lot. >> Yeah. Well, what happened here was I'd like to think I know roughly where light would bounce off a plate of armor. I I but I don't. It's the truth. Like, and also what I've realized is the dark areas are more important than the light areas if for my feeling for me to be able to feel out where like I've got a shoulder pad, the elder shoulder pad that's in the photo on the Discord if the listeners care to go on the Discord. Um, like all of that plane should be bright basically, but then it

doesn't feel right because it just looks like a bright shoulder pad. >> Well, it is a bright shoulder pad. >> Yeah. The problem, the thing is, I mean, I'm not going to do a workshop right now about about this, but everything plays a part. And uh uh if you paint um a shoulder pad just by itself, you can do one thing, but if it plays a part in a whole figure, it will do something else. And it will definitely be boring because it's just one shoulder part. And it's not even complex. It's just the one shape. So, it will have one highlight. And if you want to to spice things up, you can add different things, but this is aesthetic only. Um, and it will will be high value because it it's near the face and it's in the top part.

>> There's nothing else to do. >> This is Yeah. >> Yeah. This kind of plays into when you were saying that you wanted to spend 10 minutes on this. I think the sketching that doing a guardian and sketch in 10 minutes and getting the rough volumes and knowing where to put that really bright light in contrast to other parts of the model. That makes sense. I think that's what I was saying like you we it's it's interesting because this connects a little bit to what we were talking about last week about the heavy metal style. If that's how you're painting things, you can do a single leg of that guardian and not have to worry too much about what the rest of the model looks like.

>> Mhm. which is like >> not necessarily a benefit or a shortcoming, but it's a very different that's a big difference in those styles. >> Yeah. This this so lots of things happened to me in this week. Okay. >> That was one one huge thing that I realized like it hit me like a truck. >> Um heavy metal style I can do quote unquote. I I I there's so few thought processes that need to go into it. I'm having a a huge existential crisis right now about this model that this has caused me, right? Where I'm I'm like I'm I'm I pretty much believe I mean I've talked myself out of it now, but that I can't paint, right? To go to go to like what you see in that photo to I would think that I could do a bit better than that, but no, I that's what I did. And I wasn't spending 10 minutes and I wanted to finish cuz I probably spent six hours on this model already, right? It was 10 minutes and then getting annoyed and then starting again.

May maybe maybe a bit longer, maybe half an hour or something, but certainly not not that long. I want I wanted the sketch to come to me. I wanted to sketch and it would just be there. Um, and how everything interacts with stuff. I have no I've never done it before, so I have no faith that it will work. So, I have no com. It's not comfort, but I have nothing to lean back on. I'm just like my balls are in the air and flies are coming and slapping them, right? Like I I've got nothing to protect it. There's no confidence. Confident might not be the right word, but >> yeah. No, cuz I quit after two days. I was like, do you know what? Fuck this.

I'm going back to Zenithal lighting. Like I'm going to not quite any metal style, but basically every metal like what you did, Martin, probably right >> where I don't have these horrible questions. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. Like answering uh qu answering those questions, making those decisions like our now is always saying, you know, painting is all about making decisions, >> small ones, big ones, but just a series of decisions. And when you do when you paint an elder guardian in the heavy metal style, those decisions become much fewer really. There's not that much to consider. It's it's safer in a lot of ways. uh and it can be extremely difficult to do in terms of precision and technique but decision- making not that difficult especially if you stick to like recipes and the established craft worlds and color schemes and everything. I think um with that in mind and this is going back to what I now saying like if you uh what you think now I I I assume what you're feeling is that you don't know what those decisions are like how to answer all these questions

but maybe you also don't know how to find the answers to those questions. So in terms of like how to do the light reflecting on the armor panels you said you said I thought I knew how to do that but I don't. The question then is like how how would you get there? Is it just by painting billions of armor panels or is it getting a lot of good reference material? I know that I definitely underestimate uh reference photos for things like armor and well anything really that's supposed to look more naturalistic than you know classic heavy metal style. So uh and NMM is a is a great example of that. I I don't know what where you are with reference material are now, but I would assume that you always have to look at something.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. For me, references are the key of art like everyone and this is this is relates to the meat of it actually if if we get there at some point. Um because in doesn't say meat of it at the bottom so we're not we'll get there eventually confus >> I know >> but in in our hobby we we close things into into boxes and in I I did I don't know if you did at any point but I did some some art classes some painting some canvas painting when I was younger And they they they were never we are going to paint this or we are going to learn this like how to paint wood, how to paint metal like what what the fuck.

>> They they put you on on a on a chair with some fruits and some things and then you copy it and then you you learn it by by studying it. uh and this metal and this fruit and this pear and this apple will not be the same as the next one because they will have a different light they will have a different color they will have a different everything. So what happens in in our in our hobby is that we instead of doing this we close things into into boxes which is the topic of the of the week of it. Uh, and I think it relates a little bit with the with the nomatic thing that you're saying and and probably and I'm going into a tangent here. Probably now is one is a good moment to do a feedback session because you had a lot of troubles doing a thing and you have a lot of questions that are unanswered. Probably so many questions that you don't even know. And

if we do a a feedback session, we can answer them and then you maybe can build up up on that. I It's very hard to do a feedback session on the thing I've done, >> right? >> Why? >> Cuz that how do you even feedback on that? I mean the as in the P the model is so you may as well just get a blank model and we >> no but this is exactly what we were talking about before about having done it now you know if our now says you did this thing but you could have done this or you need to add this to this you've already painted it >> even the thing is >> doesn't matter whether it's shit or not it refers to something you've painted >> no the thing is the part of the process and the main issue is that I'm seeing so clearly is that because you are not seeing the the the rest of the the next steps, you just abandon it.

>> And maybe if I if I show you the next steps, then it's like, oh, okay, then I can do in the next when I have the next problem instead of just quitting like a bitch and and doing something new, you can just keep going. M >> yeah this could be a good learning um >> I think it is I think it is like >> good lesson this this could be a project for you to to go through that horrifying like like are now saying a fight >> just fight this model until it until you've beaten it into the ground and you're pissing on it corpse >> I just I just realized we we we've got the means to show the fucking photo in here now >> I was going to say I don't know why I didn't telling people to go to fine it's fine finished. They can find it whatever they want. We're probably going to have it in the background right now.

>> Said like just fucking Hold on. Right. There you go, lads. >> Right. You You will notice our heads. Anyway, look. Who cares? The production I never expected us to jump into this moment. All right. Now, are now what you have on the screen. Okay. >> And Martin, we have the first one I did, which is the less chalky, right? >> The the darker one. Yeah, that sounds about right. >> Now, I just want to tell you this was meant to be a red model. Okay. But I because of how I wanted to to frame the whole thing. It's probably irre whatever. I wanted excuse me on now. I wanted the I wanted the the highlights to be the red, right? But it's still meant to it's meant to be in shadow, which is what the whole concept here, right? And then you had the other lights going on. That was my attempt at my first L&M. Okay.

>> Okay. Good. right now. >> It's it's it's actually very funny because it's it's right. >> This one is right. >> The first one is actually it's actually good. >> It's not good. >> You did you did one step out of a thousand. >> Exactly. >> But this step is right. >> Didn't feel good. >> Yeah, I know. That's that's the problem. the the problem is that you you didn't see it or you didn't know how to follow and but it's like you you have the right the right step in front of your face and you're not seeing it.

So it's it's mildly annoying but mostly funny that >> that it's part of the lesson. And it's part of what you you need to learn like when when when it sounds so so dismissive to just say trust the process because you also have to know what the process is but in this case just fucking trust the process and also kind of trust yourself a little bit like you you've looked at a lot of models. You know you you know what you're doing essentially. >> I would start like this. I I promise you that if I painted this I would start like this.

>> Which bit are we talking about? >> Everything. You mean the shapes of stuff? >> Yeah. >> So, I tell you where I broke down. Okay. This is where my thought process went to. Um, no one will be able to see what I'm And you can't draw on. No, I can't draw. Okay. So, >> go on. >> Can you stop a second? >> Of course. We are literally just excl shoulder blade area um for me. Right. So, I got here and I was like, "Ah, fuck." In that crevice of the shoulder blade and the than the boob plate, >> I was like, "That has to have light on it." Right?

>> So, so I started putting light in it. >> And then I was like, "Fuck, now I need to start bringing up the other colors even more," which was okay because I had the shapes, right? >> But I was like, also on on the right side and the left side, I needed light there. Um, I hadn't done the abs or anything really yet, right? Um, and then I think I think I couldn't control the reds properly and it wasn't just it just all felt like the the back paneling. I don't even know what to call this, but this flat thing like the I was like, I need much more even light across there cuz there's no that's just going to hit that whole thing in a flat surface basically.

Um, >> I'm pretty sure that all your refles are right. Yeah. Okay. Well, all those thoughts meant that I started trying to get them resolved and I think I was trying to maybe blend a little bit too. I don't know. I just got in my head and then and then I ended up I'm going to quickly go back to show them where I ended up quickly before uh wrong. Where is it? Here. So, then I ended up here for your viewers. Okay. Now, they're looking at the the the last photo, the chalky.

>> Are you recording? >> Yeah. Yeah. Recording. Yeah. But you don't you don't need to go to it now. I'm just showing them where I was at because I've just shown roughly the the on that model. You can see I tried to fill in this chest here. I obviously I didn't try with the back, but I just and and I just kept restarting it where I was like I couldn't get any of the lighting right, but Yeah. Right. So now we're back to you sharing. >> Okay. So now they see my screen. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, >> um, a shit have to restart.

>> Okay, I'll pause. >> Yes, please. >> Right, we're back. >> Okay, so um, now you did, it seems like you did a couple of of layers of color, which they are right. >> Right. You can, you can, um, uh, comment if you want. Oops. Should I comment or >> if you want? Yeah, of course. >> About what? >> You've explained your thought process. Uh, and we've seen the the second version you said, so we kind of know what you were where you were going with this.

>> This is my This was my first attempt without thinking, right? I wasn't going out of my way to try and think about stuff. I was just like, what would naturally come out? And then I think on the fourth attempt, I was like, Jamie, you're such a twat. you piece of fucking shit. Right. >> You really are. Yeah. >> And then Cheers, mate. Wow. Um, and then I was like, do the volumes, work out the shapes. It's a cone. It's an oval. >> I'm sure I'm pretty sure that when I do this, you'll see. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought. >> So, let's just cover Let's just cover the main the main structure, right? So, you know that this this area has to have light.

>> Exactly. Yeah, >> it has to have light and and that's it. It's it's just >> it it's just funny, right? Because I you heard me say it and I knew that, but even on the one I did two day three afterwards, I still wasn't doing it. >> But it's because you don't trust your thoughts. >> Yeah. >> Now hope hopefully when you >> Sorry. It's good that you're doing a separate layer so we can do a before and after. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Good. >> Fine. >> When when when you see hopefully that everything you did was right, you just need to keep going. >> Hopefully. >> Yeah, I see. you will trust yourself a little bit.

>> It's like when you've got a baby and they're walking and you hold their hands and you trick them and take their hands away and they just fucking fall flat on their face. No, they they they they're like, "Oh shit, I can't actually walk." Okay, you stabilize as we call it. >> Let's uh translate this shoulder pad to the other one as well, right? You have something like this. >> Yeah, more or less. And then what you said was completely right. This is also light. Yeah. Then I had a little bit of shadow on the bits that were up on the actual Yeah.

>> And then a bit more like this. Obviously, we have a bit like this. >> Yeah, I did those, too. >> Uh, let's do a bit more. Let's do it a bit darker on the on here. So, we we have a bit more context. >> Yeah, I did. I was I was banging those out. And the legs were easy enough as well. the the the the the fucking abs were difficult. >> I wasn't sure if I as a big plane or as individual and it felt more right to do it as a big one. One big one.

>> Yeah. The thing is >> it was hard >> the apps mostly will go in in obviously start with midtone >> obviously >> and then >> obviously >> I mean I mean it's a it's a vertical surface, right? So it has 50/50. It does. It's not fully light and it's not fully dark. So, it's 50/50. >> Um, and then let's put some just just to have a bit more context, right? >> Mhm.

>> Okay. But this is absolutely terrible. Well, a part of me wasn't going to do the legs that that it was going to be a lot darker, right? And a lot but still following the same testicles in your mouth kind of vibe, >> of course. >> But you were intentionally leaving that much of the legs dark. >> No, no, they they I I I I didn't take the photo. >> There's some bottom facing surfaces or lower facing surfaces that would that would be dark. And then there's >> Yes. I mean, if I didn't take a photo of it, but the whole other side is basically blue.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you wanted that rim light like you were saying. >> Yeah. Exactly. Then it was going to be bringing up from there. >> So now if if we follow what you did and we start raising highlights. So we put a bit more highlight and you start building what in on top of what you did. >> I can't remember why it felt so wrong. I think maybe I just didn't see it through. And an MM looks shit until it's not shit >> pretty much.

>> Who was it who told me that? >> I think that was her now. >> Do Do you see how immediately already it looks like something? >> Especially when you add that on the on his little fucking backpack top of his backpack thing. Yeah. >> See, only this is these are cubes, right? So you know that the top the top um surface will be will be lit. So and then on the on the top part you can experiment a little bit to not make it so boring. You can bring the light a bit more in the front.

Yeah. I don't know why my brush is working so bad but true. Um, >> yeah, that's what I wanted to do. >> Yeah, I know. And you did, but you stopped. >> Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't get it past. >> And obviously you keep going and then at one point you'll you'll think that this is pink, which is completely fine. But, you know, it's it's it's already there. It's literally already there.

Mhm. >> And once you are there, you you and this is what you would do with with an ink or with a very good red or something like that. You glaze with with it. Let's do a different opacity. You glaze on top. You know, I might even use yellow for this. Like straight up yellow ink or contrast paint or something. to to give it um a sexy >> well to make it red basically like what are now just did with transparent red.

It's a great way to build up the highlights uh and then tint that afterwards rather than try to constantly adjust it towards something more yellow. >> Yeah. So something that that that's very useful is using uh a reading a good reading and then mix it with a with a good red normal red like like this for example. >> Yeah. Right. You know >> and you mix them both and you have mi mixed opacity and also mixed uh satin so it's not too satin and and you can glaze great with that. And you dilute that with water or medium?

>> Yeah, I never use medium. Always water. Um, so yeah, you you Yeah, that's that's done. >> I mean, obviously you have to refine it, but nothing that you did was wrong. I I didn't erase anything that you did. I just built >> I just kept going. So, this is a lesson in um it's not quite insecurity because I think I said Martin, you said that I said when we were off air um whatever fucking hell you said, but like I said, I can't do it and and then last week you're right. We said that people say they can't do it and then or I won't paint that. I'll paint that when I'm better.

>> And that's basically what I came up with at the end of this. I was like, you know what? Fuck N&M. I'm going to just do what I can. >> Yeah. And it's it's also we we agreed that your life lesson life motto of uh >> things always work out is very applicable to painting because in this case you thought when you said it was chalky, you also think by then you've you've gone too far in like layers of paint and you've fucked it up where you can't kind of go back and paint over it again. And I think especially with this example, aside from the fact that our now is using Photoshop, but you can actually keep working with it.

>> So actually whether or not it's a perfect start, which in this case it probably was a good start. >> Even if it's Yeah. And and even if it wasn't, even if you Okay, actually I don't want the highlight to go that far. I want to have more. That's that's part of the process, too. You just keep going. So really all it is is that you stopped because you thought I'm fucked it I did I did the wrong thing. But all it is is you you stopped halfway or not even halfway. You started started stopped 10th of the way through. >> The thing is when the starting again will happen like at certain point if you make enough mistakes you will have to start again. Right? So it's it's just about knowing when that point is is the key here, right? like um because >> but it's also a little bit like what or what Ara was saying with when you add all these um when you do the sketching and you're just throwing paint all over the place and guessing until you get it right, that's probably not going to work

out. But as long as you have some idea of what you're doing, which again, you clearly do. If you just kept going in this this with the same volumes that you were working with with these same shapes, you would have gotten to a point where you you could have made corrections without redoing everything or going over everything. Corrections are always going to happen. That's again part of the kind of process, the sort of back and forth. >> The thing is if you're uh you can stop sharing on now and I'll jump back to the view. Okay. >> If you're um Oh.

Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's that like to know when, right? It's like at what point do you say, "Okay, I trust myself. I'm going to keep going and this is going to look good." I have that with Zenol and the painting I've been doing for the last 15 years and this was my first maybe second because of Z. I did do N&M as well. Um, yeah, you don't know, right? It doesn't just apply to this technique. Yeah. But in this in this particular case, it's more like why did you

why were you so afraid of of going in the right d in the wrong direction that you had to start again such small timing >> so many times >> and I mean I don't know how how much this would this take this took you this try. Not much I assume. >> Yeah. >> Like a few minutes probably. Yeah. >> Yeah. And h how the the the fact that you decide to to quit that in five minutes means that you are afraid to of being in >> I must have done a bit more on that for me to go like I I that wouldn't have been a point that you're looking at there. So I fucked it up from there somehow in my mind >> if that makes sense. Yeah. Like I must have I must have started to try and bump up the blacks or I I don't even remember. I don't know that that wasn't the point where I quit though. Um cuz yeah, I was just I I I was I was happy. I was going through I was I was quite happy to make mistakes. I wasn't

like trying to photograph everything every moment that that was I took a photo at the end of the evening where I was where I was on on that that one. Right. Um, and then I took a photo at the end of the evening on the other one. >> Yeah, I I mean to be fair, we don't need to because we can't dive in to too far past it. But >> yeah, I'm going to give it another go. I should probably try maybe I'll try on the other model first to see where I can put my N&M hat again and try and resolve it maybe rather as in >> I think I think it's worth mentioning again also what um when we talk about adjustments and fixing mistakes it's not necessarily because you fucked up like when our now suggested adding a glaze at the end that could be part of the process from the beginning. You might have thought that's how I'm going to paint it. It probably is for for now are now.

>> Yeah. >> Um I might have thought about it the same way or not, but uh someone else might think, "Oh no, I've done pink. I didn't mean to do that. How am I going to fix this?" And that's all about mindset. That's just how you approach it. Like I'll frequently paint things. Let's say I'm painting like leather and I'll just go way too bright on the highlights. Maybe I'm impatient. Maybe I'm just working through um yeah, like too few uh values and and it's really bright and then I'll glaze over that and that then the previous highlight becomes more subdued and it looks better and the glaze sort of works to improve the overall thing. Did I do that because I messed up and I'm trying to fix it or is that part of the process? I mean, it's kind of it's the same thing. it ends up being the same thing as long as you trust yourself to be able to do that.

>> And if that's like, I've painted 10 miniatures and I'm unhappy with the armor color on all of them. How I'm going to fix that? That's more of a fix, maybe. Maybe. But I mean, certainly for something like this, if you're just working through it and you think this isn't really what I want it to look like, then just try and try and figure out why and like keep going. And but again, like it's it's a little bit about mindset. Try not to make it too much to criticize yourself too much and go, "Oh, no. I made a mistake." Like, >> yeah. Or or or not about mistakes. Only came at the end.

>> It's not about mistakes. >> During I was happy. I didn't care. It was only right at the end when it suddenly slapped me in the face. Holy shit, I don't know what I'm doing. That's what happened there, right? Like I was Yeah. genuinely happy to do those all those different versions and try and experiment and cuz I was like it's effectively like I'm painting six models in a way quickly I'm going through it I'm getting stuck trying to take what I it's just ironic that the first one or let's say maybe second one was better than the last one uh and that's where >> also yeah something that seeing the brush strokes and everything something that uh I I know because I've been there thinking about the sketch as something fast and and aggressive.

It's damaging actually. Try to do a sketch quick uh carefully, very very deliberate, you know. Do one brush stroke that it takes 3 seconds to do like literally the brush stroke takes 3 seconds to do. So try to because a sketch doesn't mean chaotic and doesn't mean aggressive. It just means a preparation. >> Right. Basically. Yeah. try to be deliberate with with the brush strokes, not not chaotic. >> I mean, ironically, that was where I got to at the end where I was like, "No, spend longer. Think about it before you do it." Whereas, and the irony here is that I can't remember if I was doing that on the first one. On that one you saw, >> it doesn't look like I was going fast on that one. It looks like the the strokes were thought out and they were deliberate. And the last one looks more chaotic, but the last one was the one where I was trying to not be chaotic.

And the first one or the second one was where I was just being a natural painter without me being in my own head. Um, I don't think there's anybody anything for anybody to learn from what just happened specifically, but it's a journey that I am on. I'm interested to see where the next model goes. I'm not sure how I'm going to apply um uh like trusting yourself. That seems like a very specific kind of I don't know >> substantial.

>> No, but it's it's actually not trusting yourself because you may may not know what what how to do it or what to do is it's trust that if it's something there's something wrong with it, you will be able to change it at any given point. So it's it's that thing, right? I'm getting too pink. Being afraid of this feeling is what makes you I'm doing it wrong. It's okay. It's it's pink. I'll just glaze on top with red. Doesn't matter. It just fucking doesn't matter.

>> No, I agree. When I say trust yourself, it's not like assume that you know best. That's not it at all. It's more like trust that you can fix at anything. >> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. >> Okay. Well, up until that point when I mentally broke and disfigured my own body, um I I I was enjoying it. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, I wasn't enjoying it. >> And I was like, fuck. But I wasn't as angry as I was 6 years ago where I was like, I hate this. I was just like, cuz before I was trying to get better specifically. I wanted to get better. And now I've got the idea that I'm looking forward to being better, but I'm not trying to get better. I think there's there is a difference. Fuck you if you can't. Yeah, good.

>> Yeah. >> Um, and then I was like, "Oh, the journey is not so fun." >> Well, I can't. No, no, in fact, that's not true. I was like, "The N&M journey is not that fun and I'm going to go back to what I know." But I did admit defeat at that point, >> which is funny because it's the same. The fact that you're labeling it no metallic is again the box thing. >> It's just the same. It's all the same. >> We can get to the meat of it if you want.

>> Yeah, let's go. Um, okay. >> Oh, now you've mentioned boxes a few times. What are you talking about? >> Yes. Thanks for asking. Someone is interested. >> Meet of it. I should have done I should have paused and >> I do. Okay. Trying to find the intro. >> We'll get there. We'll get there. Um I'm vegetarian. Of course, the four meat of it. Guys, you have suffered for an hour. So, let us release that suffering. To be honest, the first first 11 minutes of the intro were gold >> and then my depression came in. I have you seen Oh, fuck. I almost forgot. Oh my god. Right. Hold on. I'm pausing it.

Right, guys. I nearly forgot to say this. This should have been done in the intro. I even wrote it down on my um my notes for the episode. There's a new anime that I want you to watch and it's it's hilarious. >> Mhm. >> And beautiful. And it's nothing like that one that you made me watch on now. Fug or what? What was it called? Fe. Um, but I do implore you all to watch it.

It's called Mash. Potato. Mash. Forget the potato. >> Mash. Mashel. >> Oh, maybe. >> Have you seen it? >> No, I know which one it is. >> Fuck. It's good. It's like unexpected because I watched the first episode or the first five minutes and it wasn't good, >> right? >> But then it got amazing >> and um it's season two now, episode like five or three or who cares, right? >> It is brilliant. It's it's it's like Chad P style in terms of how much I laugh at it when I shouldn't laugh. It's very endearing and fun. It doesn't take itself seriously and it's brilliant.

Okay, I'll leave it alone. >> You've got nothing to lose on now. Literally, you've only got to gain, right? Let me just quickly check my notes. Okay, I've got other stuff, but we can get in that right meat of it. Let's go back. Um Oh, now take it away. Yeah. Um, there's also something that in the in the we had a lot of comments in the last few Instagram posts and I wanted to just address a few things because I think um we we kept getting for example in the last in the last um was one of the last parts we talked about recipes and and people were very defending of recipes and stuff for army painting and it's like of You can use recipes for ami painting and for whatever you want. It's not like we want to uh when we talk about things we don't want to restrict things for anyone and everything has its own place but

we are talking about one type of painting. I mean trying to get better or you know recipes will get you where you get where where they get you but you know what I mean. >> This is Can I interject or do you are you on your your round? >> Yes, of course. Why would you why wouldn't you? >> This is what Alfonsa's main thing was that we when we were learning was to this it's odd. This is very specific, very specific like thing, but it was to get to know colors. And by using paints out the bottle, you don't understand colors. Um, and when you understand colors, things become easier. I will >> caveat that by saying actually it makes your life 10 times harder.

>> So, um, by having a recipe for someone who's starting out, who's not in any way artistic, it's like if you don't have recipes, you you you'll stop. I think you'll stop really quickly cuz you'll be like, "Well, I can't get that color that I want that I want to recreate of that thing that I'm using and if I don't use a recipe, I'm just going to get frustrated and quit and blame everything." Right. So, and it's exactly what you're saying. Everything has a place, right? It just happens that the conversation that we were talking about >> and that's that's my I'm jumping in the >> Yeah. Yeah. And and same same with um with uh giving colors and colors don't matter that what we say that colors don't matter. Uh, of course if someone asks we will say it of course um we are not going to say yeah doesn't matter look at it for yourself that's not how it works >> but yeah there were sorry there were I think a couple comments about yeah exactly didn't want to share >> and u I'd like to point to whoever wrote that you you haven't asked me personally

and if you do I'll tell you I get questions a lot on uh Instagram about specific things that I've painted And I've written down the recipes for most of them. So >> which in these comments the the the word gate gatekeeping kept kept coming up. >> Yeah. >> Like we don't want to share our colors. And obviously they can think whatever they want. It's it's it's the internet. So >> we would never be weird if they didn't think that.

But um it's it's not even possible to share the colors most of the times. That's why >> for your style of painting, it would be if you're doing >> of course if you paint by recipes, of course. I mean Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and I think that's maybe that's the misunderstanding. When you say that you can't share your the the paints you use, the colors you use, you mean that literally because you probably know. >> And I when I've done some things I've painted, I've written down the exact recipe in the kind of heavy metal format, which is something that I can do and sometimes do. So if if I have it, I'll give it to you. But also, if someone's like, "Which uh putty did you use or which sand did you use or which tufts?" Like I'll I'll tell you. We're not we're there's no secrets that we're trying to keep is probably the point we're trying to make. It's like we're not trying to safeguard our trade secrets that are unique to us >> that people think that we are.

>> Yeah, maybe. But it's like that's not that's not Yeah. >> It's not really how that work that we're like, no, if if everyone knew the paints we used, then everyone could do it. Like, yeah, we want everyone to do it. Far away. >> Yeah. >> So, what you're saying is we're going to set up a Patreon specifically for questions. >> Yeah. Y and it's going to be a per question. So, we're absolutely going to share our stuff, >> but it's going to cost you per question. >> Yeah, literally £10 per question. And um >> now we're cooking, boys. >> Now we are cooking. >> Not per answer. Like that's per question. So, >> per letter. No, that's ridiculous. No one has that much money. Um yeah, I uh I I have loved the comments.

When I read anything like that about actual painting, I completely switch off and I don't know what they're talking about. But I like the comments where people call me a piece of shit or blah blah blah. So keep >> and and you can tell that most comments in socials are they haven't listened to the podcast. They don't know the context. They don't know maybe who we are or what we what we do. So yeah, if if I if you see a random guy talking about colors that matter and you are painting with with uh recipes, then it's like, yeah, of course they matter cuz that's normal. We um we are we we I pay I pay money for this thing to upload to different places, right? So I only have to do it in one thing that I'm just telling you that I'm spending money and you guys aren't. I just want you to realize how much better I am that No. Um I am though. But yes, the the main point here was on Tik Tok, somebody saw your video and they go they go, "I don't know who that man with the hair thinks he is, but why is he talking about stuff like that?" And I laughed a lot. I didn't reply. I I

had nothing to say, but I just like the fact that he hates you are now for your opinion. Um, >> it's totally fine. I mean, I It's understandable completely. >> Exactly. And I I >> Which of your many opinions got this uh comment? That's amazing. It was like our first Tik Tok comment as well. I was very happy. >> Oh, nice. >> Yeah. Um to be honest, if any anytime people I Let's do the meat of it because I'm I'm >> fucking hell. >> Yeah. Um well, yeah. I don't know how what what was the the meat that met >> you were talking about boxes and maybe restrictions. Is that >> ah right Jimmyallic.

Um, so I was >> What? >> You can't really call mine non metallic. >> No, no, no. >> Close enough. >> Well, but the fact that you think about it as nallalic, it's it's funny in in in the way that you It's like I I know how to do some things, but when I think about it in a nonmetallic approach, then it's like, oh, I don't know how to do it. >> Which is very funny because it's exactly what I'm saying. >> Yeah. >> That true. It's the kind of headline of it, the subject of the thing is changes the way you look at it. Yeah. >> Uh I've been thinking about this topic a lot because I I talked with someone uh a while ago and I I really think that obviously boxes are useful for for learning, but they get you stuck. And when you when you think for example learning how to do nometallic and you learn how to do nometallic in one way if you think in a box like doing nome metallic you know as a as a thing you will always do the same n metallic

because for you doing nome metallic is that not it's not not anything else it's just that same as if I learn how to do leather then leather is just that instead um when when you learn or at least was what happened to me when I was uh doing um painting classes, it's just you study what you have in front of you and every single time it will be different. So you don't even question what you are trying to paint as a topic. you don't you don't close things up because and this is something that it came up in the in the discord not long ago uh where a guy asked me about uh reflective no medallic right and >> I saw that question I was going to I was going to get to that as well actually >> and I was like I mean I cannot give you an answer because it depends on what type of nonmetallic you want to do but if you close off non metallic into a

very refractive then yes but there's there's metals in infinite uh types of reflectiveness color um you know texture so what is it that you are trying to do and my my answer to your question will go according to what you are trying to do it's not it's you guys know what I mean right because >> yeah yeah of course of course it's I think it's >> me that's why >> this relates to what I was saying before about reference material because I've I've had in in my mind this idea that some people are good and will be able to paint things like animem and fur and uh the exact patterns of like uh raccoon because they just know that they just know how things look and I keep forgetting and underestimating how much people actually use reference material.

And the funny thing about NMM, and I I I I love that we've become so obsessed with this expression and that term for something that just means reflective that we've completely disregarded what that stands for and the fact that we're painting metal, >> like metallic surfaces or maybe reflective surfaces. So, the armor that you're doing >> and the armor that you're doing, Jamie, um let's completely disregard the fact that it's not made of metal. It's like wraith bone or whatever mesh or but you know whatever it is it's it's also not really metal like um u shiny candy red car isn't anmmal >> what happens with uh plastic what happens with plastic can be just as reflective latic is probably even more exactly it's great examples and leather is kind of the same thing so it's it's it's really like with NMM all you have to do is just stop thinking of it as NMM and think of like what is it you're trying to paint. Is it armor? Is it shiny armor? Okay, skip skip metallic.

Skip NMM completely. Is it is it uh a a tattered rusty piece of shit? Uh you know, kind of uh cast iron piece of metal. What kind of metal that's what you're trying to paint them? >> Never mind. Oh, is are you doing NM or TNM? Like, no. That's what you're trying to represent. That's all it is. If you want to use gray paints, metallic paints, yellow paints, or mix all of them, that's completely beside the point. And uh, of course, I know that it's it's useful to learn like this, but it also stops you from seeing outside of this box. And it's like uh painting silver, you have to use blue, which is something that I never understood.

Well, I mean, I can tell you many examples where there's no blue in in metal. And if they reflect the sky, then maybe yes. But some some metals will be more brownish, some metals will be, you know, it's that and and and you have that idea that silver. What the fuck? >> It's It had gestures. It had gestures. >> Oh shit. Wait. >> That >> we leaving the do that, right? >> No, it's his uh his webcam. Is it the camera did that? >> God damn.

Yeah. >> Oh, where's Yeah. Um, >> that's that's fucking my um Yes, that >> it's cuz I'm on uh Linux. So, I understood a little bit on the concept that you asked. Do I understand? Now, I can't remember what it was that you said. Um, but I remember thinking, I don't understand, but I do understand a little bit. What what did you actually say when Martin you agreed? >> We said a lot of things >> that whole that whole >> you said the whole the whole thing.

Well, it was it was like that thing where you said >> it was mostly about I think so a sort of short of it is that was saying like if you think of NMM and you think of a way to paint NMM then you're too restricted in how you approach >> is is that sort of thing. No, it's before that. Okay. It was before the hockey. >> Well, >> different types of metal, different colors, different >> before that. Before that, >> no, way before that. It was the main the intro that you gave >> boxes. Might be it. It's good content though, is it? Got to keep the show moving, baby. Um, okay. So, what was what's this meat bit called?

Putting things in boxes. Yeah, learning by with boxes or things in boxes. Yeah, I guess. >> Okay, great. I'll just quickly save that. Done this all. We are recording. >> Can be a little bit um I get why someone would think that especially are now who is literally a box artist and I mean you're you're insanely good at what you do. So it's it's I I can see why someone would look at your work and be like, "Well, fuck that's easy for you to say, but I need some guidance." I get that. I really do. It can be everything from uh complete step by step on how to paint any one thing or little things like like some of the first NMM silver uh I ever saw had kind of some descriptions of paints and I remember someone was like yeah I use this like uh I guess um what's it called?

Sun color is it was it sun yellow >> really really pale desaturated yellow as a highlight and I thought that's cool. It's not it's not blue like you're saying you're supposed to use blue for silver but this person used yellow and it created this really great kind of midtoney pale effect and whatever that's more towards a recipe right that's not just me looking at something and going right I know exactly what I'm going to do to paint this you might need that inspiration and that help the problem then becomes if I use that recipe for everything I ever paint that's supposed to look like metallic it's a little bit like when you're driving a car. And when I was learning to drive, I didn't use the uh the camera to to reverse.

Uh and my driving teacher was like, "The car has one, but I want you to learn how to do it." And now every time I rent a car, nearly all of them have that camera. And I really found myself not learning how to reverse into parking like um very well or you know >> just I don't do that. I don't have to do that cuz I can just look at the little screen and I'm like fucking lazy and I'm like yep that's where the car goes. >> And it's a little bit like that. You can develop a skill, but if you don't have to, you'll might find yourself more comfortably using the templates, the readym made shake and bake versions of everything. That's that's >> you might not >> and you might not find yourself being limited or restricted by that but you can objectively are >> that's exactly what what what I was saying with the with pointing with the comments because um out of context these things can can be seen as yeah you are very good at painting then you you can say that for yourself right

>> but actually I've I always learned from scratch as well like it's not like I was born already a miniature painter So I had to learn things as well and I know that because I had to do this shift by myself uh when I was learning through boxes and and then I understood why my my how do I do another metallic if I'm thinking about it just in one way. What if I want to do a a metallic piece that it's extremely non-reflective? How do I do that? Then obviously I went to references and this opened a new world.

But this this is just to say that just knowing that you're putting things in boxes can let you open them if you need to. >> It's it's not >> that's a great way to put it. Yeah. >> It's not that you have to completely erase the boxes. >> It's just that know that there's a lot more outside. >> Yeah. And and and uh one thing I think as well with uh uh if you do stick to something like NMM uh sorry every metal painting and recipes it's worth always asking why for every paint every step every change in value and tone to try to figure out why. And if you can't figure it out like ask someone. Um but that's the relevant question. So, it's not just like, oh, what which color did you use for the highlights, but like why?

Cuz that will probably have a good answer. And it might be uh not that deep and interesting, but sometimes that will really kind of lead you down a road towards like, oh, well, knowing why means I can make that decision myself next time. >> Yeah, exactly. when when these questions happen and someone can ask a question and and expect expect um like an answer that it's fixed right >> and if I if I do this h how this should be and it's like there's no should it it just depends on on what you are painting a lot of things can work >> it depends on on where you go if you have references if you uh and most of the things can answer yourself.

That's the that's the big takeaway of all this because this these things that I can answer and I always will but these things that I can answer you can answer yourself by doing some research by >> uh going to uh Pinterest or Google images and look for metallic uh stuff or for leather or for whatever and this will answer your questions as well and you will learn a lot more than if you ask the question to someone. >> Well, well, mistakes I've made with references. I often would spend not hours, but a while trying to find that sword in that shape for N&M, >> right?

>> Yeah. That's not what I'm talking about. Yeah. >> It's Well, it's the it's the mistake that >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's the you're offering the solution. And I often would get references and then get frustrated that I can't recreate that exact color or that exact feeling. Um, and I think only now, the last like couple of weeks since we've been diving into our deep psyches here that I've realized references aren't for copying, they're for feeling. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. And >> it's to to answer questions. >> Yeah. And finding a sword with the perfect&m example of somebody else who's painted the same sword doesn't teach me how to do it. I just copy that and then I learn none of the principles on on what I'm trying to do. So, um, yeah.

It's a easy mistake to make especially with so much stuff but also you go you spend as long looking as you do just trying to experiment on it >> but it's the same >> absolutely >> because yeah if you if it's it's so much easier it's the same with it's was what I'm doing going through now when I've

just realized >> heavy metal style >> means I'm comfortable because it's a lot less questions asking and if I have a reference force and I can copy it there's no questions I can just copy it so it's going to be a lot easier and then my technical technical ability can come out rather than my artistic side. >> I mean that's a general sweeping uh generalization but um >> no concept you do raise a really good point because uh looking at references is a whole thing by itself. You need to know what to look for, what to extract from it. If you have to what you have to do is analyze what happens with that piece. What kind of highlight? how much does it blend with the midtones? How it's not about that specific shape on how it resolves. It's about how how it works as a as a as a material. And that's why it's so important knowing that there's no boxes or that should not

be boxes because then everything are materials. You have a a completely you you know it's like um you have like bars, right? And you have a bar of how reflectivity is, how uh or how much, how textured, how everything. And and you can tweak those bars and and do different materials with it. And you will get to a to a metal and then you can tweak one bar and make it a um a latex or a reflective plastic. You know, there's all of them are materials.

They all answer to the same principles. It's just some have one characteristics and some have have other characteristics. >> It's tough still and it's and you've got to be brave in a in a very I can't use that >> but it's it's it is tough but you can get quite technical like Arnell is saying now if you think about it as as materials and you think about contrast the same way that might really help you answer a lot of questions. If you've got one material that's reflective maybe the one next to it should be less reflective. If you've got something that's really saturated, then something else might be desaturated. If you're trying to mix purple and yellow, it doesn't have to look like the LA Lakers.

You can tweak things. You can I mean, you don't literally have to have the bars. But if you think about it that way and you're just piecing together everything like this little puzzle of >> all those things require commitment, right? >> Yeah. be more >> you have to I mean there there's some artists that I see and I talk to who don't who don't have those preconceived ideas and they're just doing that naturally right and they seem a lot happier they've got the hair they don't have bags under their eyes you know what I mean they they look healthy whereas you're questioning the wrong questions like the same I was fucking little twat he kept me up all night but um like if if if I'm okay with just going I'm going to enjoy the journey and paint I I'll naturally get further than if I'm like doing the way I've done it grow growing up >> seeking for like an answer to this thing expecting it to be perfect blah blah blah and then trying to piece it all

together and and and living in this um painting hell where you know I'm trying to recreate something like not recreate but I'm trying to get or do this like finish that I want rather than just being like this is the feeling I want and I'm going to get as far as and close as I can and then just go to the next one. >> It's tough. It's tough. >> But painting is a hobby, right? >> It is. Yeah. And and obviously it is only applies if you want to get into it into the into the big shit.

>> Yeah. because it is a big pile of shit that you have to, you know, >> there's so much fucking hell. There's a lot to painting. I realize like it's not as easy as people make it look. >> Unless they're using my example. >> It's awful. They make it look easy, they're fucking lying. >> Yeah. For me, drawing is like this is how I do a line and it looks like shit. someone else does a line almost the same shape and it looks perfect. It's like why someone can do a face with three lines and it looks absolutely fucking amazing and I do three lines and it's like this looks like a Picasso on drugs.

It >> it makes no sense. >> It's how a millimeter can change so much in a drawing. It fascinates me. >> It is. But it's the same in painting. >> Yeah. to be honest. >> Like when when have you seen the videos of KL Kapinsky >> drawing like >> some expert um anime illustrator and and like any of these guys that they're living and breathing it and you're just like that's that's cool. You know my favorite videos is when they start with a massive cock and you're like why are they just drawing a huge dick but then they turn it into a character of anime or something. I mean >> there's one talent.

>> This would be your favorite one. >> Yeah. There's one artist in in Instagram that I can share the video with you. He or she, I don't know, uh paints um a face and then he does a a weird shape and then this weird shape becomes >> fucking perfection. >> I think I know which one you mean. It looks crazy why those things would work together. I know. I think I know which one you mean. >> He he or they it doesn't it's very deliberate what the shape that he's doing and and he doesn't erase anything. It's just I don't know. It's mind-blowing, but I guess that's expertise.

>> Yeah, I was going to say like sometimes I'm envious that my greatest skill is my job and it's just boring coding, right? Like the thing that I've spent, don't get me wrong, it it it it it makes me have a job and I'm extremely grateful for it. Um, and envy is not the right word, but like sometimes I like I see these videos and I'm like it's cool that their craft is so visual. Um, and it's sad that like 99% of artists who are very talented get paid dick and then like I don't know a couple of hundred thousand probably 100 a thousand are probably like well paid.

>> So it's Yeah. But I am also always like it's an amazing thing to see. It's the same when you see do you remember fail um fuck I has cheeseburgers. Do you remember that fail blog? >> Epic. Okay. Well, it was back in Fuck. >> Epic fail I guess. >> Yeah. But it was a website before memes existed, right? So every day you'd have multiple posts. It was it was a blog and it would be a fails. So it would be like duct tape on a car >> or I mean that was its own website as well, but you also had um Epic Winds and they'd have videos of that. To be fair, they must exist now in a modern format, but they'd just have humans doing stuff that shouldn't be possible >> and it would be like a guy >> shit >> on the front of a wheel on one of those like scooters and they they they'd scoot across a whole thing and they'd like wiggle their body to or like a guy jumping off and then doing a somersault and then going through a tiny hole.

These things are amazing. Which does lead us into Hold on. Are we finished with the meat of it? Not really. Right. We need like a closing thought, don't we? >> I mean, there is a closing thought. I don't think >> be free, be relaxed, >> and enjoy the process would be my um which >> well I would say >> y >> just not even study because it's not like that. I I never spent hours studying things.

It's just about uh you can get a lot of information if you just type a couple of words in Google of what you're trying to paint, you know, >> but then you have to approach it the right way cuz I was doing that. >> Yeah. I was looking for a specific thing >> rather than this is where I want to go roughly. >> Yeah. That's it's it's it's and no one no one that's the kind of stuff that no one talks about. I guess no one's ever online saying yeah just do a anyway fuck it. We've just done it and we're online.

So I should pause it. Hold on. The We're recording now. This episode has as many pauses as we've ever done in like all combined. And that's because >> So thought of the day, boys. >> What you feeling? What number? One to eight. >> You still want to go with four, >> I guess. >> Okay. >> Yeah, that's the one. >> This is actually technically two and there was only seven.

This is a bit weird, this one. Why does some music have longevity whereas others doesn't? Um, so music that I listen to 10 years ago sounds rubbish to me now. like music that I loved 10 years ago and I listen back and I'm like, "Oh, that's fucking shit." But there's some albums that are 20 years old that I've been listening to like every month and they're still absolutely amazing. And this kind of leads onto my frustration in color theory. That green is life, red is warmth. I understand that we link these things to those things. And I I I believe that music is in a similar vein that we had to evolve somehow to have music in us to to bring us together maybe or I can't I can't I hadn't got that far in the music thought here now memories you hear a music there's an album I used to listen to stereophonics

um sex fucking whatever right it had decoder on That was the first time I had sex was around that time. Okay, maybe a year after or something, but roughly. And when I listened to the album, I remember that girlfriend from when I listened to the album, right? Things didn't end well, but but I still enjoyed the time, right? Um, and thinking back, it was a

positive thought, but it frustrates me that there's so many things I'd love to be an expert in and I'm not. And then I don't I can't, right? But I would love to understand why music does what it does to us. >> O yeah, that's a big one. >> That's a big Yeah, that's a big one. >> There must be I I I do think uh what you said about how some some music is timeless and others are. I always think when I hear old old music that it's not even my time, so I it's not tainted by nostalgia. I think, yeah, this is better than I what I listen uh nowadays.

And so I don't want to be that guy that says everything was better before, but in some cases, I don't think it's a bad or a wrong statement. Maybe um some things were um crafted in a different way or a more careful way or a more less um I don't know >> there's less boxes possibly. So Led Zeppelin, okay, my favorite band of all time ever. Nobody's better, right? The first four albums are my favorite albums and it goes roughly 1 3 2 4. Okay, they had three albums out in a space of 14 months, right? And they are in my opinion fucking like almost perfection.

And they had two albums, one and two, which are brilliant, in the same year they were released. Now you have most bands now do two-year breaks, right? And I I don't know if this is true, but I think drugs have an impact on on this somehow to to release creativity, but who knows if they were on drugs at least. But there's a lot more now desire to sell and your record labels and blah blah blah. Back then, I think you were doing it because you love the music. Now I think you've got these tailored pop groups or blah blah blah and it's much more the two-year cycle it's enough then we get the maximum sales out of it you can do a tour in between it becomes really formic >> it's probably >> yeah I agree I agree >> whereas back fucking just >> I think there's a there's there were a lot of super commercial bands in the early '7s uh that did bullshit and any of them we

might not be paying >> yeah we might not pay attention to them now and the same way there are a lot of bands now that do really really creative interesting amazing music we don't know about them because we mostly know about the super commercial stuff I think the crazy thing about music today is I feel like every single genre is alive still and because of things like band camp and how easy it is to get uh your music onto the streaming services >> hard to find.

>> It's it's No, but like all of it's just out there. >> If if you're like, "Oh, I want to hear like a new new metal group cuz you know, you missed 2001." It's like there's probably a bunch that are doing that thing now. They're not doing as well as those bands were in 2001, but they're doing it. There's I mean there's definitely bands that want to sound like Led Zeppelin now. Um successfully or not. There's every kind of hip-hop that's been released since hip-hop started. Uh maybe not 1973, but like in for the last 40 years, all of that kind of hip-hop is like being made now. As far as I'm concerned, all of it's just alive. So, it's weird to kind of talk about modern music and non-modern music. But yeah, w with with regards to popular music now feeling manufactured, it literally is. It's uh it's always funny when people talk about AI generated music cuz I think like well is it really that different from music that's being written by seven

professional songwriters with the intent to make it as catchy as possible. >> I agree. It's a it's like it actually relates to the to what what we said about painting. >> No, not today. But um the motives of being of painting, right? And is is it do you want to be a musician because being a musician is cool and you have you do money or you don't want to make music? >> These are very different things. And maybe before and this is just speculation and obviously I don't know fuck but maybe before there was not that much about I want to be a musician but I want to do music or I uh you know I don't want to be a X thing I just want to do X thing >> and and that what's it it ts the the craft right because then it's not you're not fully in it for for the M >> I guess shit it went dark or not dark

deeper than I thought it would. Um yeah, >> big subject music. >> Most of the music I listen to, most of it is older music. No, I'll rephrase. Most of the music that I can relisten to is older music. Um there's a few bands that have come out cuz I don't I don't listen to the radio and I don't get any recommendations. So, what I tend to do is I I'll download um every album that comes out and I'll listen to the album like once or twice. Right. And I'm talking about um a specific way that you can get files.

Right. So, it's not every album that comes out, but it's every album that gets put on this platform. But then I go out if I like the album and I buy it >> and it's like 18 quid cuz I buy flax cuz I'm a twat. >> Um >> Oh, wow. Yeah, but uh I I'm really happy to do it when I listen to this music on and on and on. And I do still pay for Spotify. So I I'm I think I'm all right with this downloading that I do. Um but I have a folder called shit cuz I don't want to delete them. But there are an obscene amount of of of bands in there. Some dickheads have been uploading AI music to this place and that is really annoying because it's not good AI music. It's bollocks. But I still have to keep going with my uh with my little but it's a how I can find new bands. I don't know why I told you that because it doesn't relate to anything that we're talking about. But um >> I mean at this point the podcast is just completely dead and it's just >> we had a good we had a good few a good middle section there about painting.

>> Right. So we've done Thought of the Day. But yeah, it annoys me that some music I can go back like the Verve urban hymns. That must be 30 years old now. Can still listen to that like it was yesterday. Well, we're exactly 30 years old. I was going to ask, what do you think when you say older? What do you mean? >> 90s. >> Well, older, I guess. Like, >> cuz you said 20 years ago. That's 2006. >> Yeah. I mean, that's it's it's when I was young. Any any music I listen to past 18 is not old anymore. >> You know, like Rage Machine first album 1991 >> that came out, that's technically old, but I still have that in my heart as new. But you when I was saying old, I meant like ' 90s, ' 80s, '7s, '60s. Like when you hear and and I'm not into it, but when I hear those songs, it's like these songs have something that they it's not here anymore. They have social media and they didn't have phones.

That's >> there is context to everything. I don't think I I can honestly say that I can disregard the historical context. Maybe it's like a almost like a fake nostalgia. It reminds me a little bit of some people who get like overly excited about, you know, fifth edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle. And I'm like, you were born in 1999. What's when are what are you remembering here? But it's a feeling. This is is a little bit like like that with uh music from the 70s and 80s for me. We're all three of us are born in the 80s and so really any music from the 80s, it's not like we remember the good times. I I don't I don't even listen to those to that that type of music. My my listening is very boxed.

Really boxed. So it's not like like I talk like I like this music. I don't even I don't even >> has something. >> But you're talking about a quality to it. >> I when I when I hear it in whatever I don't know in a movie or or whatever I feel they have something I don't know they they are very >> Do you want a tangent here? But it's on topic. Fuck you. >> I watched the film Sinners. Now, I've seen that many times and I think it's the greatest film I've seen in the last 16 months. Um, but the soundtrack in Sinners is what makes that film apart from the rest. Right. And they've got in like real artists, but they're older artists. Um, but they're still not from the like ' 70s. Well, maybe they are.

They can do blues for a while, but I think the music in there has that feeling. Things I Hate. Do you want to go into that quickly? >> Mhm. >> This one's quick. This one's quick. >> I won't even update the the >> We're not going to talk about it. >> Chewing gum. >> Good. >> Good. >> Deleted from the thing. Right. And that's it. That's the show. the worst episode I think we've ever recorded. I will let the uh I'll let the fans No, we've absolute shit to be honest with you.

>> We have >> This was the perfect example of like a reverse shit sandwich. It started off chaotic and then it like you got this beautiful nougat center. >> It's not the end. >> Yeah, >> we got more. Sorry. You are you I'm basically saying that that sandwich might be shit now because we're going to do Dr. Love Brush because we have so many that we haven't done. Let's just do one. >> How long is this episode so far? >> 1 hour 15 minutes. >> Oh, really? 1 hour 15 now.

>> 1 hour 40. But we've taken a lot of pauses. And that's why for you and I, we've been sat here for 4 hours. The listeners haven't. So LG, the illustrious LG Lionel. >> Yeah, the Lionyl. Yeah. What's he want? >> Tips for painting latex. Now, this goes quite well in in what we've just spoke about. >> I don't know if it's just the same as MM. >> Did he actually write MM? >> Whatever the fuck the thing is that you >> Yeah. Okay. The actual term then. Yeah. The entire question is for our now 100%.

He's actually trying to just talk to >> we literally just spoke about it for the last hour. >> Yeah, the the Well, no, like 50 minutes. But >> there's one tip. There's one dip which is look for latex. >> You know, you know you got some latex at home. LG just >> lying around. Spanx is asking the mirror. You naughty boy. >> Have a look at it. >> Um, right. Next one. LG I guess as well as some tips for painting cast shadows and mixing shadow colors for skin in general are now or mine but >> it's actually a lot simpler question than it seems because people separate cast shadows and shadows and they are the same.

>> Shit all the >> all the shadows are cast you know. So what's the difference between something casting a shadow on a skin or the skin being in shadow? That's literally no difference. >> Literally, I think a car shadow just to I imagine is the immed like your body will do a car shadow, right? That's the art and then >> No, it can be some it can be anything. Yeah, that's what it depends on my mind. It's it's an object. No, >> it's about how something versus the sun.

>> His point is that it's his point is that something is is covering a part of the

model in a different way than than ambient lit. Yeah, exactly. But it's not it's it might be that someone is uh holding something and you get a perfect shape of that on it can be anything. >> So cast shadow is just a strong shadow effectively. >> No no >> no no it's just another shadow. It's like are now saying it's not >> but when he's talking about it that's what he's talking about. He's talking about >> who knows what he's talking about. >> But but that's that's that's a very common mistake and it's a box. You are already putting >> Yeah. >> a cast shadow in a box because it's like why does it has to be a dark shadow? It doesn't. It doesn't if if if I have this how see is this very creates exactly it creates a shadow >> right so the the main thing is that in skin very dark colors usually don't fit and then the next thing is that the color of the shadows that you are using is the same color then most of the times you will use in cast shadows.

Thank you. There you go, LG. Suck on those nuts. One quick last one because he's never asked before and I don't think he's been back on the on the We'll I'll find out. Steve Trotier, Dune 71 in brackets. >> I'm new to display painting and I have never known what to do with the shadows. I know it depends on the setting and the ambience of the figure, but what do you guys suggest as most common way to paint shadows on the side of a model for me to practice? Could I just desaturate colors, lower overall values? At the moment, I'm painting a figure which is fucking well like he's finished it by now, saturated in a blizzard-like environment. Any guidance could be so it's obviously very specific. Mhm.

>> It's a good question though. Like the is it's the idea of having a model a part of a model that's in shadow and how do you paint it to look like it's in shadow instead of just not painting it? Very good question. >> It is a very good question. Yeah. >> Steve might be our seventh listener. >> Okay. So he's >> Well, I've never heard >> Yeah, he's it's a big >> So he gets a a branding on the back of his t-shirt. Yeah. >> Yeah. carry on. >> Um there's many ways to do it. Um one way usually it's when you are doing a saturated piece and you want to do a whole shadow plane playing with the saturated colors. It's works very well.

Um it this works very well actually always when you do a whole plane. He he suggested it himself to is it good to just do a darker values and less saturation? That sounds about right. You're you're on the right track for sure. >> Exactly. And most of the times you will have to do it lighter than you think. So the problem with when people paint, when we all paint dark planes, we think that we have to go so so so dark and we play with just the darkest colors we we have and then everything looks like shit because we we literally can can do nothing with colors that are very dark.

Uh and you cannot see any difference. So what you have to do is raise the light a little bit but when you do it just don't raise the color just keep it the saturated and then it it it does a very good contrast between the saturation because color and saturation I mean light and saturation go hand in hand. So if you remove the saturation you're you are telling your brain that there's less light. So that works as well. >> It's why you don't dream in color. So, let's go. Thank you there. What's your name? Stephen. Steve. No, Steve.

>> Is that it? >> That is I mean, we've got more, but fuck it. >> Yeah, we've got I know we've got a long list of questions from Bull that he asked uh six or seven years ago that we still have. >> I mean, we could do a couple more if you want. >> We're going to get to that. We might fire off like bam bam bam all the answers to those at some point. I just want to remind if he's still alive and listening. He's quit because we didn't answer his things. I've not seen him online. >> Probably did. Yeah, it was a life life. Got four kids. He's a busy guy. I'd understand if he's got better shit. >> So, he's literally had sex four times.

>> Wow. Insane. That is >> Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's how that's >> fuck. Imagine that. >> 15 years. 15 long years. To be honest with you, no one asked, but it doesn't feel like 15 years. I actually I I I still in my head we've been together like a year, me and my bitch. So I'm I'm surprised it's 15 years. Yeah. >> Is it good? Why is it good? I don't know. >> It's a thing. >> Well, it's cuz we don't spend any time together. Oh boy. Oh god. Okay, guys.

>> Let's let's just put this down. Let's just >> We're going to drag this episode out by its uh by its neck and shoot it. I've had fun. >> Yeah, it was fun. I'm I'm not sure if our listeners will share. >> Well, we'll see reaction. We We I I actually wanted to go through um some of the comments as well, but it's too late now, but there were some fantastically good comments >> um on on there. I'm not going to do them, but I I do want to collect them. Um, we did we did have someone say sorry and that the past the cast is fantastic.

But um, stop talking over each other. That's important. >> Yeah. Don't tell me what to do though. I I do think if uh if someone uh has commented and said that we're a bit disorganized after this episode, you don't have to say that again. Which we got the message. We just didn't >> Well, I went I went the opposite. I'm stubborn, right? So, I deliberately got to be honest, I don't know what's going on in this episode. All I know >> is we're still together. >> We should we should release the the episode without the cuts >> and you know the 4 hours have the police on our case at that point. Maybe it'll be illegal to release something that good.

>> These are for Patreons only. >> I can't wait till our Patreon starts. >> It's going to be amazing. >> Let us know if you want a Patreon and how much you'll pay for it. >> Yeah. 15 quid. Why is my audio? We should have done a sound check. See you later, guys. Thanks for coming. >> See you. >> Thanks.