How to Quit the Hobby

>> What? >> How long's it No. How long's it been now? >> That's what I wanted to do. Right. Welcome everyone to the sixth episode of season 4. >> In some ways, some things never change. >> No. And nor should they, right? Um, yeah. Well, welcome everybody. You, if you are a new listener, you will be wondering what the fuck is going on. And that is Lionel House of Deser on Instagram. I am joined by him. And a little brief history, Lionel and I started the podcast in 2019 now, which is fucking mental, by the way.

>> That long ago. >> Yeah, I remember um cuz we did we knew each other right from the course from Alfonso's. No, we did afterwards. Did we? >> We met on an Alfonso course, but not the original one that you were on. Yeah. As in you and I didn't meet on the journey with him, did we? >> No. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sat me. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool. Right. Cool. So 2019 is is when we started the podcast and I wanted to do a brief um I forgot I wanted to do it but like timelines of all the different cool shit that's happened like the breaks the when we got free stuff like you know and then presenting a timeline on a thing because um I I thought that would have been relatively cool but obviously >> I think the problem is I think the problem is we didn't achieve much. No, we didn't. We achieved it spending time with each other. Well, the right so >> friendship um somebody was it you or someone else? LG new Lionel. We've got you know we replaced you Lionel. There's

an actual Lionel now who who helps us out. He does he does our >> person. Yeah, you met him. You met him at Monty, right? >> Oh, right. No, but I knew there was an AI Lionel. >> Yeah. Well, we don't talk about that. That's No, we we beep. That's No, LG does our c He does our He does our like social media stuff. That's why it's so good. >> But he's not called Lionel. >> We call him Lionel. >> Right. Okay. >> He's He's He's I mean, he has a real name. He's a real person. >> He's might prefer you to use his real name as opposed to >> Yeah, I guess so. Shit. I hadn't thought about that. Sorry. Uh, Michael, I sometimes call him NJ and then I remember he's not um he's not into those sort of same thing. Anyway, so the right fucking this is the old podcast now. I didn't realize or I've completely forgotten that we used to have the liner the the deser show. Is that what we used to call it?

>> I I don't think we ever called it. There was just the Hupper show and then just the one that we did together was >> No, but we did fucking we did loads, mate. I mean, this isn't really >> Yeah, we did podcasts together, but it wasn't named >> I think. No, it was it was like right we had we had the news desk. We did that for a little bit. It was a train wreck to be honest, but we had we had Right. Look, let me do Desa into our >> Yeah, we we had news deskes. >> We did. We literally had a thing called the Hut and Desa show and I had forgotten about that complete. No, no, I'm looking. It went to episode 12 13. We did 13 episodes of that Lionel and I have zero memory of it.

>> I don't have any memory of it and I'm usually quite >> Yeah. >> It was actually called the Brandesa Show. >> Yeah. And we got like average say like 400 listeners a month a week, right? >> Really? >> Yeah. We used to get 24 comments, 10 comments. One episode got one comment. So that wasn't very good apparently. Uh 10 com. Anyway, we used to So, so nothing's changed. The only the only difference is we've got are now and Martin. >> Yeah, >> that's it. Right.

>> It's it's it's like the sugar babes. Every so often we just change the lineup. Or you change I say we. >> Yeah. >> It's not me anymore. >> Well, I'm like the lead sugar babe, aren't I? The Chinese one. She was half Chinese, wasn't she? But whatever. >> Was she the lead? She She was the first one. Who? >> Wasn't she the longest? Oh, >> no. She was the first one who left. >> That's you then. That's you. You can be the Chinese girl. >> Asian. So, it's close enough, right? Um, it's geographically it's closer.

So, today's episode, right? What do we have planned? Lon, we of course are bringing back fastest race car for you. >> Brilliant. >> Do you remember that? >> I do remember. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I I had hoped I had hoped some of the features might have because how long has it been? How long has it been? It it must be at least it must be at least >> two years. Two years. Yeah. Let me let me have a look. >> In some ways feels like a long time. In some ways it doesn't feel like long enough. >> Well, Lionel, three years to the day was the last episode that went out apparently >> with us together.

>> Yeah. >> Three. >> Three. Fucking hell. Three years. Well, that leads me on to Right. Anyway, so we've also got the new segment called Grotbusters. Now, you have no idea what that is, do you? Um, did you mention it, Monty? >> Yeah, but I'm Why would you remember it? Like, basically, Grotbusters is a small game show. I give you the initials. Okay. >> Oh, it's Blockbusters, isn't it? >> Yeah, basically. I could I could have just I forgot actually that I stole the idea completely from Blockbusters. Um, we did have like family feud, family fortunes, but there's only two of us and I know the questions. So, it's a bit So, you could do a one player. I asked them I asked So, we we I asked people at Monty, but we've done those now. And then I've asked people, they've submitted answers to us, so they're real questions.

>> Right. Okay. >> You just will be competing by yourself. Right. And it's called Faction Feud. It's the name. Um, right. And then we've got thought of the day basically. And that is just a dribbling of your thought. >> It's just every now and then when I think of something I write it down and then you pick a number one to seven and then we talk about it. But we didn't originally talk about it but somehow they're like sometimes they're conversational. Um and then I wanted to talk about AI and the new whatever C the new Chinese >> Yeah. C something 2.0 wasn't it?

>> Yeah. I feel like that is relatively interesting for me and us. So I should say I'm not I'm not just here for me. Um and we can do ask the artist and you and I can try and answer some of these fucking questions that um are meant for our now and Martin. And that was >> I was about I was about to say what we need is we need an artist. >> Not us. Fuck me. Not us. Um so the fact that it's been three years is mindboggling. Oh, so I will tell you. So the free stuff that we've got since you've left, Lionel. Okay. Since you've left, guess how much we've got.

>> I I don't know if Where's this coming from? Is this coming from listeners or is this coming from companies? >> This would be from Yes. Companies or listeners, but more likely. >> You're not going to give me a hint. If you give me >> No, no, no. >> I actually think listeners tend to be more generous than companies. So, if they're coming from listeners, I think if they know you're doing projects and you're talking about projects, I think they could be quite generous. If it's from companies, because it's more of a um what do you call it? A business situation. They tend not >> You slap my back, I'll slap yours.

>> Yeah, they tend not to be as generous. So, I'm going to say you're getting most of your stuff from listeners, I would say. And I think listeners generally are quite generous. >> They weren't when we were doing it, that's for fucking sure. Type >> Well, you got to have the right presenters, haven't you? All I hear is now you know what I since you've left it's going from strength to strength. >> People are loving it. You've left. >> I'm getting I'm getting messages saying please don't bring him back. >> Yeah, exactly. I'll buy I'll boycott if he comes back for even one episode. >> Well, that that that's seven listeners that we've got now. L will go down to six. So, it'll be all right. We've we've got around six or seven consistent listeners now. So, >> no, you must have more than that.

>> Nah, we right. What happened is do you know all the listeners we had before? Quinton, Quantavius. >> Yeah, >> they they don't listen anymore. We lost them all. >> Um, like they >> don't want to say that because they left with me now. I'm joking. >> Well, I mean, >> you must have a bigger following though, just off the back of Martin and Arn. >> No, you'll be surprised like like Oh, hold on. I shouldn't do that in show. Should I rearrange my head? Um, now we we we're we're really a cult following still. Now, do you want to change your mind on the answer on how much free stuff we've got?

>> No, because No, because once again, I still think when it comes like I watch other podcasts, >> popular ones, successful podcasts. >> No, no, no. Because like, like I said, I'm I'm into my comic books now. I'm into my, you know, we'll talk about it later probably. Yeah. My movies. So, I tend to watch those kind of shows. And what you find is you do get a loyal cohort of listeners who will always contribute. So I don't think the fact that you may have a small audience means that they're any less generous. I think if anything >> there should be more >> well not more. I just I just >> they should know in fairness listeners you are lazy and you don't give back and we do want more free stuff.

>> I I hope I hope this question is going somewhere in the >> I hope it's not absolutely nothing. Well, LG gave me two kilans and that was greatly appreciated. Um, and I did that on >> What's the retail on a kilan? >> Probably 40 quid for a box, >> yeah, 30, let's say like >> like Pratta 28 quid maybe worth of models, >> but it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't the money. >> It's the effort that they've actually thought about it.

>> We brought it to Monty. I did um I did my uh task masters. Do you know what task masters are? Yeah, we we started All right. Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Did we? We didn't go very far. Oh, of course. Of course we did. Wait, wait. You wait a sec. >> I'm still getting I'm still getting my royalty checks from the task masters keep rolling in every week. >> I just fucking realized you I us three did podcast. You me and are now. >> How can you not know that? The first task master the first taskmaster we did was paint a term again and I've got my um I've got my Hulk uh Pez dispenser which was another taskmaster.

>> Oh, you're right. >> In fact, in fact the in fact the irony is for two week for two months I was the only one who did the bloody taskmaster. >> Yeah, you you could almost say that Arno and I pushed you out. It's like bullying at work where you they want to get rid of you but they don't fire you but they just bully you. >> Make it very difficult. Come on guys, you have to pay the PEZ >> and then we don't do it and then me and I now laugh about it on did his bloody PEZ dispenser. So I didn't I forgot that you What were our podcasts like? Season two maybe.

>> Season two. No, I fucking Do you remember many of them though? >> Oh well yeah I remember a lot of Yeah, they they they had similar similar features. Um >> right. Right. So, we had task masters. >> All right. I'm not going to look it up now. I did that last episode where I did fraction feud during the show. So, okay, fair enough. Then it's not been three years. It's probably been two two or one and a half or something because cuz Martin >> It's more like two because I I align it with with when I started consulting. >> I dropped off pretty quickly then, didn't I? And I've been there now for just over two years. So, >> well, that does lead very nicely to the meat of it, Lionel. I mean, what we what we could do is we could do a quick fast as race car. Get get the listeners to know you who they don't know you.

>> Yeah. >> And then we can jump into it. All right. So, >> okay. Let's see how well I know myself. >> Uh, faster the race car for anybody who doesn't know cuz basically the irony is we don't get new listeners either, right? Well, we we've switched to this new like shorts model where um LG or Lionel cuts up the episodes for us and then we we put them out, right? And we get like 90% of our our views are just through these shorts. So no one bothers fucking looking at the >> on and where they're posted on Instagram or YouTube. Instagram YouTube, Instagram, Tik Tok, uh Twitter.

>> Fuck yeah, we are. Hold on. I don't know how many listeners we get though. Probably I I think we're getting like 800 views on each one of those videos, which is not bad. But um on Instagram, we're getting like 16,000 views, mate. We're kicking off. >> Really? People are loving it. LG's like, "I got the video." That that makes him seem like a weird little wanker. That was more me saying that he's wanking over the popularity of the >> Wait, wait a minute. Are we reversing? Are we How he answered the question about how much stuff you've got since I left. >> Right. So, >> the two killer cans and then you >> That's it.

>> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I was expecting >> No. No. Absolutely nothing. No. Do you know what? What feeds us is is the comments, >> the joy, the joy of spending time that, you know, we don't want free. We do. We're desperate. We are genuinely desperate for free stuff. And I'm not afraid to I'm I I will beg if it means like in fairness, Mali um from fuck, hold on. Not I know who Mali is. It's not the company. Some Monument Paints. So >> yeah, >> we we we we have um he basically said he'll give me some stuff, but I'm going to I'm going to test him out and and give it a ride. Right. So when that comes through, we will have made it and you can suck on a sucking a what is it?

A lemon to be >> I think 11 is the I think that's Yeah, I think that's a polite thing somebody can suck on. Um >> depends if you're married. Um right. So let So nothing free. >> Fastest race car. I can't do the jingle.

>> Okay. H um um Buzz of Wraith Car. >> Oh, I remember that one. >> Yeah, >> I've started I've started doing uh the jingles just with my voice to be honest. >> Right. Okay. When you stopped painting regularly, did it feel like relief or guilt? >> Um kind of neither because I substitute painting. I still doing a little bit, but I substituted it with another hobby. Um, I've fallen massively into drawing and well, first comic books. So, first comic books, um, and graphic novels.

I've picked up that hobby again from when I was younger. Now that we've got a Forbidden Planet locally in Derby as as as I did when I came back to Games Workshop, I'd buy a couple, that will be it. No, now I'm there every week picking up 30. It's become a complete obsession. Um, and I'm looking at redesigning my hobby room around it. Um, so as a result, I've got my reading chair over there in the corner. Um, I tend to read >> your pipe, I guess. >> Exactly. Exactly. The only way. And off the back of that, I've started drawing again. Uh, which I can do with the girls as well. So, neither really. I don't feel guilt and I don't I don't feel relief. It's just something I'm not partaking of at the moment. But >> that's not the question, Lionel. That's not the question. Okay.

>> There might be another one. >> Fast as a race car. No, it's it's it's fine. We can do slow and shit and beside the point. I think it's fine. Like, but look, right, just to go on to comics, >> my hobby, look. >> Oh, it's it's Yeah, but you know, wait, wait, wait. This this magic though, isn't it? So, you also know that's my hobby as well now, >> right? And that's why I was leading. But >> was it my hobby before? It was your hobby though. >> Yeah. Yeah. You started it. You were the one who were like, "Bring your cars to Monty." I was like definitely mate.

>> Yeah. And you didn't >> Well, I didn't know how to play. Anyway, what did you replace with the hobby time which you've already answered so >> yeah comic books uh RPG and card games primarily magic. >> But do you miss painting or do you miss at least being part of the community? >> The latter. Um I don't like I said I'm in a blood bowl league at the moment and I've got a yeti on my desk that I'm painting. So, I'm not not painting, but I can go two weeks without picking up a brush and, you know, unless I there's a reason for me to paint. But, yeah, it was all it was always the latter one for for both of us. It was always about the community and the social aspect. The painting led to that. I don't think for us it was ever about the painting first and the community second. It was an excuse to socialize.

>> Fast as a race car. Fuck it. This is slow as a race car as you want to be. Sorry. >> No, no, no. Cuz I've got questions because you you say that, but you were very um orientated on shows and you liked commitment and and trying to do well in these things, right? Which is >> Yeah. Yeah. Of course, because can you imagine Jamie somebody going to a painting show annually and not entering and not trying? >> Imagine >> that would be a fool's errand. So when I was there obviously I wanted to do that but the thing that drew us back and now you know particularly Monty this year is spending time with one another and I think that's another reason why these other hobbies have overtaken painting for me >> because I it's more social. It leads to me sitting around a table and socializing with somebody.

>> It's true. After the um Right. Right. Let's finish then we can jump in. Yeah, you're right. Um okay. And when you walked back into your hobby space after a break >> Yeah. doesn't really work. But what was the first thought you had again? It doesn't work cuz you're going to convert it into >> Yeah. Well, my my hobby room's divided up into two halves really at the minute. I've got all my reading and stuff over there, my comic books and my graphic novels and a painting desk here. I just walk past it in reality. I I didn't it it didn't even occur to me to feel anything about the desk and the paints.

So this this happened to me, but did you find that your standards got higher or lower while you're away for painting? The thing is you're not back painting. So >> no, >> no, I'm not I've been I've been I've been doing a bit and to be honest, I don't procrastinate as much as I did. I don't overthink it. I just do it. And like I said, I think I think the other issue as well is since I've been drawing more, that's informed me better on painting. So there's things when I'm when I'm drawing or maybe doing some coloring with the girls, I think, well actually next time I paint a model, I'll try that because when you're drawing, you're creating all the information yourself. Whereas when you're painting, well, when I used to paint, you used to interpret shades. Whereas now, I think I'm in I have the ability to to put more information on the model if I could be bothered.

>> It's a it's a really interesting one, though, because I've been thinking that recently. Right. So, like doing this podcast and then having like the counselor Arnell that's around and uh and Martin and then consuming all these magic cards, I've really realized how little I understand um about where to put things, right? Oh, I forgot about that, Lionel. >> Yeah, >> nothing's changed. Absolutely fucking quite changed. Um, like I I'm I'm I'm really like conscious. I'm trying to move away from the style that I've developed over the last few years, which is like every metal plus as it were, you know, like mostly clean and then just non-realistic as it were. Just, you know, >> what's that word?

>> But that was in that was intentional though for that Elar project, wasn't it? It wasn't. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, but but also like I I I've realized that where I want to position myself painting wise is nowhere near where I'm at, if that makes sense. And and looking at all this artwork, I'm just in awe of it. That the the the space the >> uh Spider-Man one less so, except for a couple of artworks I think are really really good. But the Lwin, did you get any of the Lwin? >> Yeah, I did. >> Right. Like so almost all those artworks are just like fuck, man.

>> They they really are inspiring. And I realized I'm so far away from being able to reproduce that stuff, right? And then I was talking to Aral on Saturday. Um went to the pub and played Magic, etc., right? And >> and he was in the same boat. He's like, "Man, I wish I was drawing more and I'm not even sure I could recreate what I do on a on a 2D." Right? And I was like, I I think it's quite transferable, though, isn't it? Cuz if you understand volumes, you understand color. It's like >> you don't need why do you need a model to kind of do that?

>> Like so it's interesting you're saying that by painting you it unlocks stuff. >> Yeah. I think I think drawing is more akin to sculpting and I think >> coloring in is more akin to painting. >> Yeah. >> Because when you're painting the bones and the structures there because a model exists whereas when you're drawing you're creating something from nothing. So I think in that sense drawing is probably more akin to being a sculptor. >> Yeah. Of coming. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the the the the things are pretty sim well similarish. Yeah. As close as they could be like the comic book artist that who coloring in right. They are coloring in multiple colors. Yeah. Where the artist hasn't drawn. They're the filling in the volumes basically. Right.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which I don't know. I don't know which one's harder but um volumes is something I like. I've I've been buying I've been so you can get particularly with DC you can get something called DC unwrapped and what they are is they're the graphic novels but just in the pencils as the pencellor has done them um >> and it's interesting reading them seeing actually how much more the incer puts on how much more the colorist puts on you know you you'll look at some artists you think well Jim Lee you know who's amazing and he is amazing he's an amazing artist But when you see his sketches in the raw, not only are they amazing, but you realize how much more the others add to it. So, for example, inkers get a hard time because people call them traces and say they don't add anything, but they do. When you see a pencil drawing and the inker afterwards and what how they've interpreted all those lines and then like you said, the colorist on top, they all equally contribute. Cuz if you think like it must be hard or or a massive skill if you're the artist drawing to then let

the other people fill in the details, you know, you can't do you're not shading with pencils. You're you're literally just just Bosch, right? It must be weird. >> Yeah. Let go. Yeah. >> And then just Yeah. I But um yeah, I I cuz you always used to talk about it. You always like I'm studying these things and I think you and I are now were talking about it as well. you know, you you were looking at artworks a lot more and drawing inspiration. So, I've got Well, let's finish faster the race car. Um, what were you most surprised about when you stepped away?

>> Um, what was the most that I didn't miss it? I didn't miss it that much. I mean, because I was naturally distracted by new hobbies and new interests. And it's not just that. There's there's the other things, you know, we've discussed it about fitness and um investing and things like that. So, I just filled it with a lot of other information and noise and studying. Um so, I did I did miss it. >> You're making me want to stop. No. >> No.

>> No. No. Well, it's it's like a it's like the opposite of a sad story. It's like the success of someone who stepped away. The thing is I stepped away for I mean just just the same as you. Uh right. If no one ever asked you to paint again, do you think you ever would? So there was no no pressure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's still that there's still that. Like I said, sometimes I'll be reading a graphic novel or I'll go into Forbidden Planet and I'll see that week's new releases and I'll look at a cover and like you said, I'll start studying it and thinking, all right, I like the way they've interpreted this. So like and I'm always thinking with my painters head in terms of when I do get near my paint desk again that's something I could do. I think the difference is when I used to study before I used to study in order to make attempt to make me a better painter >> whereas now I'm enjoying the medium naturally and it and and and um unconsciously taking away the learnings.

I mean, you you're I don't know if I need to see your works, Lionel, but that's it's like the uh holy ground. That's where you want to be, right? Then that's where we were when we were younger. A lot of these podcasts that we've been doing with our now Yeah. has been like around just me and then those two listening and me just complaining at like I want to do this. I've got this in my head. I want to try all this shit. Right. And the reality we always come back to is like when you were young, you would just do it. you would and you would just learn because you were just fucking having fun doing it and we've kind of stripped out the fun somehow.

>> Well, I think I think for example, there's there's a lot to be said. We've had conversations, haven't we, with Albert and whatnot where >> go to a gallery, look at some of the greats, you know, the impressionist, look at how they put down paint. >> That makes sense. Okay, but that feels a bit like homework. That feels like a school trip. However, >> you go to your lo an interest, so for you it might be anime. with me it's graphic novels. >> You know, it's a bit like tricking the kids into doing their homework. Make them learn through fun and they don't realize they're learning. And and I think that's what it is. And I think before >> we were studying and there is there is >> um there is some truth in it, but it felt like homework. I don't enjoy the portrait, but I'm going to study the portrait because I'm told if I look at it long enough, I'll take something away. Whereas if you look at mediums you like, like you said, your magic cards.

I've been looking at the Magic cards and I've been looking at some of the stuff that come is coming out in the Turtles release and the art is amazing. >> Yeah. And the art >> Yeah. And the art Yeah. The art's amazing. I I always say it's a crime actually how good the art is is on Magic cards because Magic players do not care about the art. >> True. >> I've heard I've heard some of the competitive ones say they could just be blank pieces of paper with numbers on them because they play they play the mechanics. >> They care about the art. >> Yeah. The art is amazing. >> Like having having gone I we Ann Ar and I started on Pokemon right in that in Essen >> and now we're in and I I don't miss Pokemon like I realize now Pokemon really no offense to anybody who does Pokemon but it is literally a a child's game right like >> compare like let's see if we can do it.

Yeah, >> right. Like that's that's just two random cards I've picked up. >> And this is a proper illustrative art and and and it's the art styles change drastically. Like um I don't know why I'm holding it up for anyone, but like >> it's fucking I it's I mean it's amazing. >> But also what's amazing about it is it would be so easy to take existing art from these IPs. So for for Spider-Man, they don't. They commission all new art. >> It's it's amazing. I wish Games Workshop had as much art as they did cuz there must be like two, three, four thous,000 artworks. Is that right? How how often do they release new sets? It's only 300 a set, isn't it? So, three times a year, four times a year.

>> Yeah, we were saying was in it every 3 months, but um Arnell was saying you don't include the IP ones, whereas I do. >> So, wasn't it every two every two to three months? >> Let's So, yeah. Four a year. Yeah. So, let's say 40,000 artworks, unique artworks, and GW probably has like 3,000, or at least how it feels. It might be different. If there's an artist listening, they might correct me and tell me I'm a dickhead. But yeah, I uh I envy the artwork a lot. But yeah, it's true. I'm consuming a lot of artworking looking, >> but I am sick of it because I'm looking I'm sick of talking about it because I look at it and don't do it.

>> Yeah, but but that but that's the beginning step, is it? Just appreciate it. >> It's amazing. And yeah, I think that's a really weird shift. I've never cared about artwork at all. Ever until about >> You cared about Warhammer? >> Yeah, but not in an artistic sense. In a This is what I liked as a kid >> versus uh I'm consuming this cuz I like it. >> It's been like two months, two and a half months since since we went Warhammer World. I think when you weren't there, um me and R now went and and you had a well whatever wedding or something and um yeah, it was that something cracked in my brain there to open up this weird fucking appreciation that I never had.

Um but it also is it like it's opened up, but now it's also like Yeah, maybe put pressure. I don't know. Anyway, um is coming back. Yeah. So, if you come

back, are you going to come back for a competition, enjoyment, or habit? >> I think it's going to be competition. I I don't want to go to Monty again this year without without a new piece. So, um I just happened to take one out of the cabinet last year, which was better than nothing, but still not great. So, it'll be it'll be competition. Um >> so, that can that leads us into Right. Hold on. You won't a fuck. You won't be able to see Lion because we're on um I've got a what is on the screen now is the models that you've painted, okay, from your Instagram.

>> And um just to give people an idea, no one's ever seen my models either. So you're in a a privileged position. >> Um >> but why am I wanting to show the models? To talk it through, maybe. Whatever. So on the screen is the big bird, purple and orange. commission >> that Yeah, that was done for local store owner while ago. >> Yeah, if you look at the dates, I've not been on there for >> a year, two years. Like I said, when I stopped doing Mini Matters, >> just switched out >> is when I kind of fell off. I I kind of stayed on social media for painting because of Mini Matters, not the other way around.

>> Yeah, I see. >> So, naturally, because I pursued other interests. I just haven't fed that. H. Okay. Well, I'll show them all. Oh, a the bird's ass. That's good photo. Thanks, L. Um, then we got your tank, which I actually think should have done well in in Golden Demon, especially that year, but yeah, nothing could didn't get a pin. >> Wolverine. Oh, interesting. So, this is a bit of a journey, I guess, now, isn't it? So, you did the Wolverine for for Monty, right? >> Which two years ago now? Yeah, two years ago. >> Somebody reminded me. We'll get there, right? And it was a bad model, right?

Was the end result is what you kind of learned cuz the paint job's fine. >> It's nice, but the Yeah, the model it doesn't give you much room to express, right? Yeah. More bird, more more >> and an asshole of a big blob monster. So, this is what I wanted to show them. So, I forgot um fucking call you mine. Um you placed in Monty >> this Well, the one just gone. Yeah. >> Yeah. You got Mast's >> bronze. Yeah, bronze and masters, which I was very happily surprised to get out. >> I shouldn't be annoyed. I should be happy for my mate. Um, but um >> it doesn't mean you're playing catchup for once, though.

>> I know. Well, that's that's the thing, right? So, >> that that completed my retirement once I jumped ahead of you. That's it. >> That's it. >> Don't need to do anything else. So, >> I recently re-released our post mont uh world model expo video, right? >> Okay. you, me and are now. Um, I didn't watch it. >> The one where I was a broken mud. >> Yeah, right. I like >> The irony is it was the same piece. >> Was it the same one? The exact same. >> The same piece.

>> That is the irony. >> You So you didn't get anything in standard. >> I didn't get anything in >> Oh, no. You got standard bronze. >> That's it. Yeah. And I'd hoped it'd done better and then it's placed bronze in masters in Monty. >> Yeah. to go from standard to is is Yeah. Anyway, we don't need to go into the judging. Um, but interestingly, right, so in that video, you were talking to me and hoping that my placing would motivate me to paint, right? Cuz I got gold in that standard. >> Yeah.

>> Um, and you obviously failed miserably like, >> uh, and and that was what that whole video was, right? So, if no, I don't know. I assume it didn't get many views this second time around, but if no one's seen it, it's worth going and watching just to see um see the journey of of us and then come back to here. Right. So, um hold on, let me I think I've got the piece, which was the whole point of having the photos. No, sat. I wasn't doing it randomly. Hold on. Fuck. That might be why. >> Is it It's like a uh it's like a real life uh example of sometimes you learn more from adversity than you do from comfort.

Yeah. Hold on. Right. I should pause, shouldn't I? Hold on. I'll pause. Right. Here we go. It's on the screen now. The bust. So, this is what you got um bronze masters for, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh fuck, I've completely forgotten what I was going to say um >> about about you saying I had hopes that you winning gold. >> There you go. There you go. So, so interestingly, I think what's I don't know if this is true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but getting gold actually completely demotivated me. And it wasn't like an active demotivation, right? It was much more like, fuck it. Like, what do I need to do now?

>> I've I I I realized it the other day. >> I've arrived. >> Yeah. I'd basically I'd achieved what I wanted to achieve and it was like I've clocked it. And when you clock a game, you don't just go and replay the game, do you? >> Yeah. Um, but it's an interesting out look because it means that I was only painting to get good or to do something or do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> I wasn't painting to enjoy it effectively. I I don't know if that's true. Trying to work it out now, but it it it it shows that there was something disconnected maybe. So, do you think that happened to you? Cuz it but not really, right? Because you'd already stopped and then you went to Monty.

That's the same as me with that with a zur. >> Yeah. Mine >> it >> is identical in fact. >> Yeah. Mine didn't stop. Like I said, I think mine is linked to mini matters. I think once I stopped doing mini matters, I stopped having a reason to paint because a lot of it was, well, we're going to talk about what we're doing, so I best do something. Or there'd be a taskmaster or there'd be a you're actively involved if you're delivering. I say delivering news. I say that like tongue and cheek. Uh delivering news and part of the community. You've got to be picking up a brush and and doing something. And I think once that >> I wasn't >> once Yeah. Well uh one of us are too, Jamie. Uh um so I was thinking once that wasn't there, there wasn't the need for me to pick up the brush um and do something. Um >> so I get it. you. It's like you had some moral or or not moral but some obligation to to wanting to Yeah.

>> Yeah. In some ways what we wanted to do with Mini Matters was we wanted it to inspire us to paint and it did. It gave us a reason. True. >> It gave us It gave us a reason to paint. >> Uh but when you're not >> Well, I I literally stopped painting the day we started Billy Matters. Thinking about it, 2019 was my last like I did do painting. I I I just >> Yeah. >> Not real like re I don't know. I think I've got it in my head that I want to do this like art type of painting where you can bring alive a model, you know, with all this free. So interesting. You've done it a bit more on your samurai, right? Color interpretation like tones moving around and light and >> and that's kind of I I want to do that but maybe a little bit less refined.

>> You Yeah, you want more narrative storytelling arguably. >> No, no, no, no. Well, yeah, but I mean diaramas is what I really love, but no, more like um >> almost like what um Mark did for um Alfonso, you know, that like brushstroke motherfucking bust he >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, >> and and it's Jamie as well. Um Jamie who we met at SMC, he does a lot of that. Um >> Yeah. >> He's very impressionistic and >> Yeah, that's brush strokes.

>> That's a great listener that we lost. There's another that's another example of the old guard that we lost, you know, because he did used to listen. >> Yeah, he's uh like I said, I've not I've not been in the hobby space or the social media space, but the last time >> I saw him post Yeah, I saw him posting. He's now delivering courses and whatnot, isn't he? He's >> There you go. Fucking hell. >> He's he's now been recognized >> and we were there and then he and then he got too good and then he left us and it had nothing to do with that. We stopped releasing episodes and we sporadically did one episode every like four months. Um and we used to say we're back all the time. Do you remember that?

>> Yeah, I remember announcing back. >> Forgotten about that. >> Um >> yeah, like we spoke a lot about Monty, not we we in the podcast, not you and I. And how it's very un I don't find it motivating or inspirational, right? When I go there, you might find it more than I do. Like do you ever come away think like last Monty that we went to 2025 did you come away thinking I'm gonna fucking paint or were you just like it's the same as I was before I came right >> no I I think it is I do think it's for me it's still the most inspiring painting show there is there >> but you've got to be in that that head space. So it's not to say that there wasn't anything inspiring there but I think you and I had checked out of painting then.

>> So >> that is true. That is true. >> And and like like we really enjoyed the Monty just we just went but there might as well not been models there because we never we we never interacted at that level did we weren't there for about the painting. We went we didn't care about the entries. We didn't care about what people had painted. We were there to see people. Definitely wanted to see people and socialize with people. >> It literally was a holiday. >> It was a holiday. >> Yeah. I I like So are you interestingly right before Monty last year 2025 we both said it was our last Monty before. >> Yeah.

>> Um I've now changed my opinion on that. Um because I think I enjoyed it so much for some reason. >> Yeah. >> But I don't quite know what changed. Um like we just had a good time >> or >> Yeah. I think it's the first Well, because isn't that the first one we've been to where I wasn't part of Mini Matters? So, as a result, there wasn't the pressure to do the content. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And therefore, because we weren't doing the content, we could just relax and because otherwise you're you're humping a camera around. You're thinking about what shall we do here? Is this an opportunity to make a video or interview somebody? So, I think it's the first mont we went without the the baggage of many matters and as a result, we could just enjoy it.

>> It was much more relaxing, wasn't it? I have to say like >> and some cracking new restaurants as well. I think that that that >> Oh shit. Yeah, of course. steak restaurant. Do you know what? I've not found a steak as good as that anywhere else. >> Or as big. >> Yeah. For cheap, €7 or something. Cheap relative if anyone's like broke and finds that offensive. Um but yeah. Yeah, it was it was a very good Monty. It was But does it like knowing that we're going again doesn't even make you want to paint? >> I think near to the time I will. Um, it's it's already >> I've already Well, I already started a piece, didn't I? Late last year afterwards. A Hellboy piece.

>> Okay. >> Um, which is could be done by the end of the year. Um, >> could could be maybe. >> Well, like I said, I would say about 50 60% of him is done. Um, the base hasn't even been started yet, but it just depends. But that's what's nice about it. I might pick it up. I might do a piece of a few bits on it and I might leave it again for another three or four weeks and if it's not ready by then then it's not ready. Um I have as well um commissioned Jason to uh >> interesting a space war.

>> No um so he's going to mod a Marvel Crisis Protocol >> uh piece for me. So we start so we've been talking about it on WhatsApp and if you are listening Jason I apologize I'm rubbish in terms of responding to any messages whatsoever. So I do know your messages there. I will get back to you but yeah we are >> public public apology there for you Jason. Well played mate. You've earned that to be fair. Yeah, I am. I'm look in many ways between 9 to5 when I'm working and to a degree in the evening I just don't have my phone by me anymore which which means >> I I'm very hard to comment but it means I've got so much stuff done in the interim.

>> Yeah. I I I liken that to I just don't care enough. So it's a it's a thin line, isn't it? It's a thin line. >> No, it it assures you that when you have my attention, you have my complete attention. >> Full attention. Yeah. Yeah. My wife wishes >> you're my focus. Um, >> Jason's always my focus anyway. >> I like Jason to be fair. I like him a lot. He's a good He's a good kid. >> Even though he's American, >> you know, the one thing I do, the one thing I do, >> one thing I do do still is even though I'm not much on social media is when I'm having a bad day, I do go onto his posts and I just hear his calming voice.

>> Oh, does he does he do those kind of posts? Does he >> Oh, have you have you not watched his I can't do Instagram. Watch them. They're so They're so so calming. >> Okay. >> Fire in the background. He's in the woods. He's with >> more calming than me. Like, >> oh, complete opposite of you. Complete opposite of you. >> Good. That's what I wanted to hear. Okay, I'll give that a go. If you can send me his link for his uh Instagram. >> I will do. >> Thanks, buddy. Thank you very much. Um,

right. Well, I mean, we're not we're not necessarily done with this, but thought of the day. Are you ready? >> Yep. Pick a number. >> Fast as a race car done. >> That's fast as a race car. Yeah, >> that was the shittest fast ever. But um you know what? We're still together. That's the most important thing. One to seven. Now, just the thought of the day. They are just like scramblings of a man, man. They're kind of like if you were talking, you don't need to explain it to me. I've known you for years. Okay, >> good. Hit me. Pick one. >> Oh. Um let's go with five.

Not the best one to be honest with you. It's just normal. I mean, why does the second mouthful of whiskey taste better than the first? >> That's your thought is a rhetorical. >> That's the thought. That's the thought of the day. But um >> probably probably because you're you're one step closer to being married. >> You reckon it's that simple? >> I thought maybe like some taste buds burnt off. >> Your thought, mate? Go on. Pick another number. That was rubbish.

>> Let's go with three. >> Okay. Oh, this is this is all right. This one. Hold on. Sometimes when I think about this, okay, it doesn't it it it baffles me now. You know how like you pick up a something heavy and you're like, "Oh, fuck. That's heavy." >> Mhm. >> And then you drop it. You're like, "Oh, thank God for that." And then you have like buildings, right? And they're exponentially heavier than the thing you picked up, >> but they're supported by, you know, physics and they don't fall down. Okay. >> And then you have the fucking world, right? It doesn't make sense. How heavy is the globe?

>> Infinitely heavy, right? >> But it floats in space around something else that has gravity >> and they just spin round. It just it it >> Lo, it doesn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? It does. If you read the right books, they explain it to you, Jamie. They explain how it works. >> Yeah, but there's something missing. And they're still trying to find it, I guess. Right. The whole dark matter. >> The two things that really confuse me when they talk about it. It's it's linked to what you say. It's linked >> that the world that the universe is still expanding, but the universe is infinite.

>> How can it be >> expanding to anything? Yeah, exactly. >> How can it be both? >> I don't know. I was reading today that they believe that space is actually a liquid, but it's so viscous, so um >> like fuck me. >> Like, >> is that what I didn't read the article, didn't want to like like right do there was this there's this there's this rock solid rock that this scientist was like, "No, that's a liquid." And they were like, "No, it's not. It's a clearly a fucking rock. I can smash it. It breaks apart." >> And he was like, "It is." And he put it in a in a in a tube and over a 100 years it flowed down and like really slowly >> over 100 years. When did they start?

This is rubbish. >> The experiment is still going like it's got like four drops in like 120 years or something out of it. Right. >> So it's so >> they started this experiment 120. Where come from? >> Just it's I think it's the rock from a volcano like the uh >> right like you Google it. It'll be up there mate. >> It's like my cat murderer. Right. I I was telling work the other day that um my cat was murdered 10 years ago or something like that, right? Um and in the in Enfield where my mom lives, there was a cat murderer going around. He was going around just murdering cats. He killed like 30 cats. And then I tried to Google it. Obviously nothing cuz no one gives a shit about cats 10 years ago, but there's a cat murderer going around now in the same fucking area. He's killed like eight cats. Um I'll try and find that for you. But anyway, so they think that space is actually a liquid. They can't not like what like at the opposite of the thing that I just explained and that's why it's expanding cuz it's so it's it's liquid and it means you know liquid will always expand but it's a it's a

hypothesis but it's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's fucking baffling. Um, I do I do love space, I have to say, because it's so alien. And like, do you ever take your kids out and go like out into the countryside and and look at the stars or some shit? >> I've taken them out to the countryside. I don't take them out to the countryside to look at stars and then say, "Let's wait here till night for >> Well, you don't go don't go in the day. Fucking go at night time." Like my my dad used to take us out, right? And we'd drive, I don't know, like half an hour to get away from the city.

>> And then because it would be >> summer and then they say to you, "Stay here, Jamie. I'll be right back. >> I love you, Dad." >> Yeah. >> Three days pass. You better start walking over. >> What's the um of my men when he goes, "Look at the rabbits, Lenny." And he shoots Lenny in the back of the head. Spoiler if you haven't read the book. I was thinking about AI when he d they take the little uh robot boy. >> Oh, I haven't seen that. >> No, if you're not. >> No, it's a spoiler. That was good though, wasn't it?

>> Jude Law that film. >> Yeah. Yeah. Jude Law. Yeah. You I think you haven't seen it. >> I haven't. I just I just have great film on. It's like you Anyway, so you go to the stars and that's when I got like and you'd look at the Milky Way and this is in England and it's baffling. >> I mean, everyone will have that. You look at the stars, it doesn't make sense like Anyway, the space aside, the fact that the Earth is heavy everywhere, but it floats, >> it annoys me. And he's killed himself. Uh, sometime.

There you go. That was my thought of the day. Um, now we can do Hold on. I've actually got the jingle for this. I I apologize in advance. >> Have we actually discussed any Oh, no. We did talk a bit about miniature painting, but I The podcast has never been about painting me. >> Yeah. I just I just thought with Martin

and uh >> Arnell being on it, they might have pulled you back towards painting. >> I try my utmost to uh >> just get away from anything but painting. Yeah. >> Well, the episodes we're doing are like two hours long now, right? Each episode that we do. >> Wow. >> Um and it's because >> What's your drop off? >> What's your drop off in? >> Yeah. Actually, I I don't know. Let me have a look. It's like 60% on Spotify, but then when you've got four listeners on Spotify, it only takes one two or three of them to listen, right? And then it will So that drop off is not impressive when it's so few people. Um on YouTube it's it's like yeah 18% something like that.

It's dire. I mean this one will be worse I reckon cuz there's no paint cuz there's no uh what's the word painting, right? Anyway, so Oh, did I how did I break that? Anyway, I spend about an hour talking shit and then that we we get about an hour of real painting like good. >> There's a pattern though right now. Basically, I have a problem. >> Yeah. >> Our now has a solution and Martin comes in with some nibbits and some extra special spice. That that's that's basically >> and then you never act on the advice.

It's the same. >> Well, it's the same. Do >> you want guess what I did the last three days, right, with my magic cards? >> Uh, build a great deck. >> No, that that is that takes me fucking ages cuz I have to read every card and I don't know what they do. Um, I've organized all of my cards by I only keep four of each one. I order them alphabetically and by color. >> Nice. three days I spent uh and I could have I could have been painting in that time. So the old the old the age old adage of you're not painting but no.

Yeah, to be honest, I was away for a week, wasn't I? And what? It's just an excuse. It's bullshit, isn't it? So what if I was away for six days for work? I could have spent the seventh painting. Um right, here you go. I'm going to push this button. And I apologize if it's too loud. Oh, it doesn't work. Hold on. Hold on. No. Why doesn't it work? Did I break it? All right. Whatever. Grockbusters is is this the the jingle goes like I've got it. Oh, no. I don't. But he's an orc. Okay. I can't remember the beginning.

>> Um, right. So, here's the premise. All right, Lionel. >> I give you the initials. It's GS. >> Okay. He's bloody nicked my jeans. >> Jean stealer. >> Right. So that's the example. That's the easy one. Okay. You're going to get harder now. Okay. Right. You ready? And and and and for >> all my knowledge is terrible. >> Well, it's only 40k. >> Even Okay. >> Only better 40k. You do horses. >> Yeah. Marginally, but yeah, I'm not >> The initial is S. Okay.

>> Right. >> He did what? He put the lizard in the oven. >> Put the lizard in the oven. >> Yeah, >> I can I already know there's people screaming at the uh >> Well, no, these are repeats. So, I I didn't think any new ones. So, the listeners should be getting it like this, but the fact that we've only got four, five, six. >> He put the lizard in the oven. >> He did what? He put the lizard in the oven. >> Bearing in mind, Lo and Martin get a week to think of this. So >> L and M or on M. How many L are there on the show today? Fucking be multiplied.

>> It literally is like having kids. I I get the names wrong so often. >> Yeah, I know. When you're angry and you're shouting at them and then they'll they'll turn around and say that's not my name. I don't care. You know who I'm talking. Um >> so >> I don't know. I can only edge. That's the only thing that's coming from. >> What is um what is a lizard? another word for like a lizard like um that begins with >> Yeah. I mean that >> that makes more sense. It's not that though. >> They're they're fiery. What are lizards that are are hot?

>> Salamander. >> Yeah. >> Salamander. Well done, mate. Right. The next one is is LR. >> 10 years. Right. LR. >> Yeah. LR. Okay. >> Right. Two words. Those bloody raiders should go back to the sea. >> Blood raiders. >> Yeah, boy. Nice. That's good. >> Oh, now shit. Um, this one is just H. I hardly wins anything. Me after losing a scratch card. Like losing on the scratch card.

I hardly win anything. I hardly >> H >> H >> Harley Quins. I hardly wins. >> What are you talking Where have you got that from? >> It's Harley Quinn. >> Well, do Harley Quinn not win things? >> No, but I just wanted to do something that rhymed with Harley Quinn. You know what's funny, right, Lionel? These these clues that I give these people, right?

Because look, the the listeners that we have, those six listeners, they're idiots, right? Because they keep listening. They keep coming back to this show >> for more for more punishment. >> Yeah. And we're not giving them anything, right? We're giving them this shit and they keep coming back. Right. Well, six of them time. >> You never get those two hours back each week. Um, and we have a great time recording it, but the the the clues are borderline, dare I say, retarded, but people get them. It's amazing. >> Right.

>> So, I don't know if that's a social comment on me or them. Anyway, there. Well done. So, you got >> the Harley Quinn one was tenuous. >> Yeah. Well, so was the salamanders one. Um, two out of three though. That's very good. >> Very patronizing. Two out of three. Very good. I've got um I'm going to start introducing adverts to the podcast, >> right? >> But I made the adverts. >> Yeah, don't bother with paid sponsorship. That's a That's a monk's game. That's a monk's game. Spend more time making up adverts.

>> I got some good ideas, I tell you. >> Bring in their revenue. >> My only problem is, do you want to do what should we do what Alfonso used to do to you? I'll get you to do voiceovers for them. >> Not use them. Um, >> I literally thought about that two days ago because somebody else somebody else has asked me to do ironically a voice over. >> Don't do it. >> Um, and it it took me straight back to that time where I I was up till 1 in the morning. >> You're a good friend. >> In the morning. Yeah. And then and then and then following day. Yeah. We're not going to use it. We're just going in a different direction.

>> You you specifically are the reason why we're not going in that direction. We need someone less like a news rep presenter. >> I remember him asking you, Lionel, I want you because you sound like a news presenter. >> Yeah. Yeah. I want you because you sound quite posh. And then he went, "Yeah, we put it over there and it just sounded too posh." So, >> uh, it's good. >> I mean, it is it's like a exactly what you did exactly what was on the brief and >> you nailed it. You nailed it. >> Going with you. >> Didn't want it. Too good. too good if anything. Um, right.

I got another segment that I've I've been waiting for. >> We had these two segments. Okay. Things I hate. There was a jingle and it was like this. Things I hate. It was the daughter. >> I don't doubt the the jingles. I I still I'm still off the view. You create new segments because you love to create the jingle. >> Someone has to. >> It's often a jingle looking for a segment rather than the other way around. I mean I I I I I have built my career on jingles in fairness, >> although with I guess the new listeners haven't been anywhere. And the other one is Things I Hate.

>> Okay. >> I thought you just said things you hate. >> No, things I love. Oh, well, fuck it. I don't know. >> You things right. Okay, >> whatever. So, >> so the ying the ying ying and yang of Jamie. >> Yeah, I've not done them in like three months. Um, >> right. >> Do you want one? >> Yeah. Are they hobby related or they just generally Were you talking? >> Is it Is it Is it like uh thought of the day got nothing to do with minutes? >> It's got absolutely right. Let's get back on track. Let's get back on track. >> I mean, I'm I'm game. If you're game, >> we'll do it in a minute. We We've had too much fun now. We We've had at least 25 minutes of absolute bullshit. Nothing to do with the show. Right. Um the meat of it. Okay. The new segment, the the

jingle for meat of it. I'm vegetarian. Okay. >> Right. That's the jingle. Can you step away from the hobby and still be a painter? And you and I are both we are we both have stepped away. >> Fallen completely off. >> But but happily, you know. >> Yeah. >> I wasn't. So, >> and when you say still be a painter, you mean paint miniatures or just paint in general? >> I mean, for us miniatures, I guess, cuz >> Okay. Just doesn't make sense otherwise, right? Um, >> yeah. And it's an open-ended question.

Um, >> this is an AI question because it sounds >> No, we don't use AI here. We don't use AI. >> All right. Okay. >> AI is evil, Lionel. >> Um, because it's it's a bit like if the it's a bit like that contradiction where the universe is expanding and the universe is is infinite. If you've stepped away from the hobby >> but you still paint, you haven't stepped away from the hobby. >> It's one or the other. laugh less. Um, it's a Well, it's it's like if a tree falls down in the jungle and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Right.

It's similar. >> Yeah, but the question >> it does make a sound. No, the question is is I'll rephrase it. If you're not painting, are you still painting? No, really, it's it's much more like um do we still keep the brain of painters? Uh do we lose our touch? Do we >> like Jason is a good example. You could put him in a field of shit and he'll find some photos of beauty or something, right? And he'll be like, "Fuck you guys. Look at that." And you'll be like, "Well, shit. I I never thought that you could make that look good." But he he definitely I wouldn't have thought that would tickle you.

>> He's such He's such a beautiful soul. Like you walk around with him and it'll stop and >> Jason, what's wrong? He'd be like, "I just saw this and I just had to take a photo of it." All right, mate. I mean, I've I've spoken Yeah, exactly. I've spoken about this in the podcast, right? How how you you'd go I'll be like, "Oh, I can't see anything there." And he shows you the photo and you're like, "Whoa, where the fuck have you like I'm not looking at the same thing?" >> Cuz we basically the conversation we had was um what is art with our now, right? And R now doesn't believe that anything is art unless you meant it to be art.

Like he I was like, "Is a paint is is nature art?" And he was like, "No." And I was like, "Okay, is a kid's drawing art?" and he was like, "No, fuck me. That's the opposite of art." It was a whole like two-hour conversation and we had like 100 views on that video because no one gives a shit about art. Um, and it it was way too high brow, I think. Anyway, so is painting something you do or is something that you are?

>> I think do. >> That's the meat of it. That's the meat of it. It's carrying on from the same >> the question three times. Yeah, because you didn't get it. So, I'm like like >> Oh, okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. Like, for me, I don't consider myself a painter is is is the reality, I think. And I've worked this out over the last few months spending too much time with Arnell. Like, have you seen Arnell's work? Cuz I don't think Yeah, I don't think I'd ever cognitively clocked that he could paint. >> Um, like, >> what are you talking about? Like I just it's the way my brain works. I don't realize something until I see it even though it's been there the whole time.

Right. >> He's he's done box arts for Dragon Head. You've gone to uh Golden Demon with him >> when he's entered Golden Demon. >> Like >> at what point >> I know he paints, >> right? >> But I never knew he was good. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, for example, >> I feel that this is a bit like the universe is infinite, but it's also expanded again. >> Yeah. >> How do I explain this? Like, fuck. >> I get it with everything in my life until I understand something. I just don't It's It's there, but I don't It's why I don't do politics or or why I'm never sad or because I I don't >> Why I'm never sad.

>> Well, >> you don't understand sadness, so I just don't sad. >> Exactly. I I I'm too stupid to sometimes feel it, right? Like I was like I was never bullied at school, right? And I never I've never been bullied in any capacity. And so my mate turned around >> when I look back at it, I was bullied every day. >> I still don't think I am. And my mate was like, "Yeah, you were." I was like, "No, I wasn't." He was like, "You were definitely bullied, mate." I was like, "I think I'd know if I was bullied." And he was like, "Well, like people would call you like stupid and you'd be like, "You're weirdo. They'd call me gay." I had like people would ask me all the time, "Am I gay?" Right. non-stop because I'd always talk about dicks and cocks and shit, right? It doesn't Anyway, so they were like I was like I'm I was not bullied. I still don't think I was bullied. The example actually doesn't work because it needs to be something that I've suddenly realized.

Um playing football for years. >> Yeah. >> Winning headers. I just I'd hold the person off and win the header. Someone told me you can just jump and I was like and then it clocked. I could jump. >> I'd never thought to do that before, ever. And I I don't >> But you But you must have watched football matches where they jump. >> Exactly. So this is the whole thing. And I see all my mates are jumping when they're winning headers and shit like that. Right. But I'd never cognitively clocked to do it. So I'd never did it. And I never thought I was missing something. And it's the same with Arnour's painting, >> right?

>> I' I'd never like in fact is another thing. I'd never I'd never in football used my I I held people off, but I'd never bosched people. I'd never like gone in hard and and then one day it clicked and I could start doing it. And that happened with me with our now. He's really good at painting. >> Um, and it's not just like, oh, there's a good paint job. It's like he understands painting. I look at his stuff and I'm like, it's it's way better than I ever thought he was, if you get what I mean. Like, it's it's it's he's a real painter. And and that influenced me to like realize that I'm not a painter, basically.

But no, sorry. I'm thinking I'm just conscious. >> But you're on the journey of being a painter, aren't you? >> Do you see yourself as a painter? That's And then we can go into it. >> Well, at the moment, probably not because I'm I'm not I'm not doing it, am I? But let's go back. >> That's the meat of the question, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. I forgot if you're not >> like like because you're not painting. You're still a painter. Maybe. Can you take a break and still be a painter? Maybe not if you're saying that you've not painted in two years. >> Oh, I I think you can be. It depends on how much knowledge you're retaining. I think what you're saying is have you still got it in the locker to be able to and I think I think certain aspects will get rusty, but I think certain core principles will always remain.

>> I think it's more like if you Jason if you took the phone away from Jason, he's still going to be a twat, right? taking photos of of stuff and making it look nice. >> Don't say that. >> Jason Jason's not going to take offense. He knows that I I I not love him, but we you know, I like Jason a lot. >> He's still going to have an artistic eye. >> That's right. And so will Alfonso and so will our now, right? >> Um >> Yeah. Whereas I think for the majority of us painting, I don't think we're painters in a really weird way because I feel like I feel like Okay, maybe I'm just talking for myself. I'm I'm just painting by numbers, right? Um >> I I I know I know what you say. Like for example, I've seen Albert I don't go on there much, but I've seen him re on even the last three days he's put up a photo of a building.

um with an arch and clearly clearly clearly he's put that up because he's seen some beauty in the architecture and this >> and I >> I'm not going to see >> a building. >> Yeah. A dirty old building, right? >> Yeah. So yeah, in in that sense those individuals you stick them in somewhere >> they will find something where they ah I can take something away from that. So >> if you're talking about the artist eye >> Yeah. Well, kind of more or less, I guess. Yeah. Like >> it's much more Yeah. It's it's it's basically around that and and how I don't think that we're >> it it's I don't know if it's rude or cutting or anything like to say that most of the people who paint models aren't painters.

I don't I don't feel like it is because because in my mind now I'm I'm forming this opinion that like a painter is someone who just understands and lives it and breathes it but but not cuz they feel forced. >> No. Aren't you Isn't there a differentiation there between artist and painter? So they're all painters. >> Yeah, maybe. >> But the individuals who have that eye are artists. >> But then is your kid a painter? Because they do like scribbles on a piece of you know paper. They are painting. They It's a difficult thing to define, isn't it?

>> They're They're actively painting, but they're not artists. >> Well, that I mean that's that might sum up more what I feel then. I don't feel like an artist. I I don't know if this is I think I spoke about this before like it's not an imposter syndrome because I'm not trying to be something I'm not. Imposter syndrome in my mind is like let's say I'm talking it up but >> yeah imposter syndrome is where you've actually arrived but you don't believe you. So yeah, >> if Arnell didn't think he was a good painter, that's imposter syndrome. >> Yeah. And everyone's like, "Yeah, >> you are." Yeah. >> So it goes years back, right? The whole conversation when I did the the Azerman statue >> and then you were like, "Right, do you feel great about it?" And I was like, "Well, no, I don't feel I don't feel >> good or bad about it cuz I didn't paint it. Alonso painted it." >> Obviously, I physically painted it. But and that's I' I've kind of had that same mentality now the whole time where I'm like I don't feel like a I don't feel like I'm I can express myself. That might sum up sum it up well actually.

But I'd never wanted to express myself before. >> You know, I'd get a box art. I'd copy a box art. I'd look at someone else's for reference and try and replicate roughly what they've done. But I'd never sit down and look at a piece. But then again, everyone well is like always have references and copy it. But so copy is not the right word, but draw inspiration from it. >> Find inspiration. Yeah. As opposed to a direct copy. >> Yeah. And and I think I've tried to do that, but I just can't do it, man. I don't know. Fuck it. Like >> I mean, like I mean, like I said, once you start looking at other sources, I think I think it might come. Like I said, I'm seeing a lot of stuff now from the graphic novels I'm reading. Film's a big one for me. I go to the cinema at least once a week. You see stuff there.

You see the way things are interpreted and and and how particularly with certain directors how things are captured. Um >> see it more now than I used to. I don't know if directors are just becoming more different or there's less films. But I can see now director styles more than I ever could before. >> Yeah. >> No, I think I think that because you've been around it more so you can make that differentiation. I think it's always been there. >> Yeah. Did you Did you see um the Leonardo DiCaprio one? >> Yeah. U Yeah, we've spoken about it. >> Yeah.

>> Um I've been talking to my mates more about this and they still don't understand it's a comedy. It's not a comedy, but it it's its undertones are in my opinion extremely comedic. >> Yeah. I I think I think it's got multiple things. >> It's like a comedy drama, isn't it? Sort of thriller basically. >> Yeah. and some really good scenes. But yeah, right. We're talking about Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, just Yeah, I guess you can still be a painter if you're not painting.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Good. >> That was that was an abrupt ending. I feel I feel like there's more to say on it, but you can't really say the the the interesting difference is you and I aren't artists, right? And then when you add in are now and also it's funny to see the difference in our now from the the show when we were doing it to how he is invested now. >> Um >> right in in painting again >> uh in the podcast and talking about like like I realize looking back now he wasn't as committed as he is now. Um, and the irony that there was always one of us who wasn't into painting. Us three. Like us three started. It was me.

>> Yeah. >> You left. Now it's you. Me and our now. Although that said, mine's slipping away. So I need to get that back. Right. So do you want to do Dr. Love Brush? >> Why not? It's a new It's a new segment. >> It is. There's uh I haven't actually got the um Oh, maybe I do have a jingle for it. >> I'd be surprised if you didn't. >> What's I had a period where I didn't have many jingles. Basically, it's like a doctor's there and he Oh, fuck. I can't remember what the jingle was. Oh well, I I did it. I made it up the other week. Okay, we can ask these again.

Would you like the same for a single model instead of an army? I that doesn't make any sense. Um was thinking might be a nice t No, that's also not. I've I've copied these in without reading them. Okay. They were both from >> These are definitely These are definitely AI generated. >> No, no, they're not. They're from They're real questions. I just don't know what the context is from. From Paul >> Paul? No, Paul was there. Paul's an old school listener >> in fairness. >> Um, what's the best background for taking pictures? And why is it black? >> It's not Well, arguably, did did they say gray is the best background in order to show off your painting? Black's the best background because it's a bit more forgiving in terms of contrast.

>> I'm sure. >> No, they're asking us. We're the experts here. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Right. And then what's white for? >> Whites actually. Yeah, because black and white are the extremes. Gray shows off all the colors. >> I've seen gray f Oh, like a darker gray. >> Darker gray. And And doesn't it show off the back the brush strokes more? I'm I remember I remember that. >> There you go, LG. Um, that's good. Right, hold on. I'm gonna I'm gonna pause it. So, did you blackmail Lionel to get him back on the show?

>> Uh, we we we are record we're recording. Yeah. >> Yeah. No. Well, no, you you said basically, look, Lionel, I've got no co-hosts. I've tried everybody else. >> The last you are bottom. You're the last person I'm calling. >> Come on, for all time's sake. You know, I've got those photos of you. And I'm like, fair enough. >> Um, well, Frogman did say, "Will you be wearing clothes?" Cuz he'd like it if you weren't. Um, favorite ice cream. How >> you Well, he's in our Discord. He might. >> Yeah.

>> How is painting going? So, that's a good question. I I don't think I asked. You say you're painting often, but >> Yeah. So at at the minute I'm in a Blood Bowl league. So Blood Bowl is probably the mini one miniature game that I'm playing that we really enjoy. So I had a wood elf team. I've now got in this current league I've got a um Norse team. Um and as my money's going up in the league, I'm obviously recruiting new players. So at the minute I'm painting a Yeti. Um so it's going it's going fine in in the sense that it's for it's tabletop standard. I don't put too much pressure on me. And I have got a copy of Hero Quest up there which is still vacuum packed. Vacuum packed which is still sealed which I bought a couple of years ago but I'm thinking the girls might be old enough to play with me now.

So >> fantastic. >> Yeah. I've seen that you've played it uh or started playing it again with Albert and >> uh yeah now. Well so two questions I have here is is do you miss doing the podcast? Um is the first question. Um I miss elements of it. Um so like now today it's good doing it but I think the problem is the time tax and the commitment it it required I I just couldn't give >> um and since stepping away from it and exploring other interests they've kind of filled up that time. But like I said to you the main reason for doing it was was just so that we could get together and talk. Yeah. Um, and I'd much rather that we got together in person than than over a podcast.

>> Well, I I I think I've matured, that's not the right word because it's not immature to do the cast or the the painting, but um I'm realizing that yeah, the time time spent together like when we met up. So, we we Arnau and I met up Lionel and we went to his local gaming store and we did an evening of gaming. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and we played those random games and those mates of yours. Um, hopefully I wasn't too offensive. Um, but it's very, very fun, >> basically. And it's far outweighs spending an evening painting, ironically. Um, >> at least to the level that we were painting. And I think I don't know if this is true, but the times I had fun painting was when I was not stressed about it. stress isn't neatly the right word, but I can't resolve this. I don't know how to do X, Y, Zed, right, and I'm really struggling to get this finish that I want or something >> versus going to and playing with your mates a game, a board game, whatever, and just having a lot of fun.

>> Yeah. >> The Yeah. But then again, isn't it wasn't for me, isn't painting the stepping stone in the sense that you're either painting an army because you're going to end up playing with somebody, gaming with somebody, which is the social element. Yeah. >> Or you're painting a competition piece because you're going to go to an event and socialize with people. >> Yeah. But the hours spent so so the model thing was great. Like the models, the armies that I've painted, I've got an absolute shitload of elder. it. They didn't take me long to do cuz they're not painted well >> and they're fun. I can watch TV. I do the basing. I do the B blah blah blah.

Right. That I really enjoyed cuz it was quick. I didn't think about it. I don't have some burnt memory in my brain of it being difficult. But painting competitions like >> to where you and I wanted to be masters, >> you really have to put a fucking lot of hours in to get to that level. >> Yeah. And I think that's what I'm trying to learn how to strip away the like I don't want to spend five hours a day painting um unless I'm having fun. So the I painted genuinely I had fun painting it cuz I could I was free and I was it was just fun. It was coming together.

>> So yeah I don't I and then but now I think about all the times that we've met up we've gone to Monty um we've played ball games with Albert etc. Those memories are way way more fun than I ever had of painting, you know. >> Yeah, of course. >> So, it's like it's it's

a pickle. Um, okay. >> I think just quick on that point as well to get philosophical. As I've my camera's gone as well, as I've as I've got older, I've just realized and particularly pursuing other interests that time is such >> precious commodity. It's it's the one thing you never get back. Like ironically, we we chase different goals, don't we? Money, for example, and you realize actually how easy it is to accumulate that resource. But what is very difficult to accumulate is time.

And money comes, money goes. But time, you just don't get it back. So, I really value time now. Um, particularly with how I've used it since we've not been doing the podcast and what I've done with it. Um, it's another reason like you say, you ask yourself, I could spend x amount of hours painting this model, but is there something I could be doing which would probably bring me more joy or more benefit? >> Yeah. And the irony, this is a miniature and painting podcast. >> I know. I know. I just realized as I finish that sentence, I'm not flying the flag, am I?

>> No, but it's it it's true like more and more, right? My slogan on my saying is is everything works out, right? and and like the podcast all those hours you put in and and bemooned us as like blah blah blah taking ages and this is shit and I will get but it taught you to appreciate your time right >> it did yeah >> like it took away your time and it made you and and and that's what I think if if like if I do painting and I enjoy it then great but if I don't do it it doesn't matter like I don't want to have this this >> burden that I put on myself to that ironically strips away the fun as well.

However, I'm doing that right now. So, uh we'll see if I can I can live that. Um in fact, it was these guys that that reminded me that you got um bronze in I actually had 100% forgotten that you had bronze um completely. That >> your mind deleted it because it was too painful. >> Yeah. I I liked it when you were beneath me. You know, you would shit on my shoe that I could scrape off on the curb. It was It was good. I'm glad you won for you. But um Oh, I've got to click my back. Oh, there you go. Yeah, it's been good. It's been good to catch up and and realize that maybe I'm also down the wrong path. I need to paint for fun. And that's what Taskmasters is for, is for fun.

>> It's not for this stress. And I have put a bit of pressure on myself to paint. better. Not I don't And I don't want to be better like I place competitions. Better to how I imagine I want to paint. >> Are you Are you still gaming? Are you still attending the tournaments? >> No, I haven't played since September. I've completely stopped. I don't even read the rules. I don't I don't do anything. I I I had a few um my mentor online um a little bit toxic by the end and cheating a little bit and stuff like that. And uh I think it it it >> mentor online.

>> The guy who I played with mostly online. >> All right. You said mentor like they were teaching you. >> They were they were like we were playing a lot and like like like he he's a nice guy. Really nice guy. And um it he might not have been it might have just been in my head, right? But the reality was it it felt that way and then it it soured it a bit. And then I played these tournaments and the last tournament I played against a guy I know from Germany um and I realized like that's not where I want to like he was doing loads of rule in tractions and stuff and I just got fucked by it. Right. And I at the like about an hour in the game I was like do you know what I'm just going to concede because >> I I don't care. Do you know what I mean?

Like we spent like 20 minutes trying to work out how I could do this thing with this rule and traction. Obviously it wasn't helping me. was a tournament and stuff and I I just I was like, "Oh, fuck this." Like, >> yeah, I think when you're playing at that level though, you got to expect those personalities, haven't you? >> Well, not really. It's a local tournament. There's no stakes. >> Um, >> yeah. Well, that's what So, so since we >> we spoke to I spoke to him a lot about it afterwards and he since said like, "Do you know what I realize now? Not not specifically our game, but like I want to I the game is more fun when it's relaxed." And I was like, "Yeah, mate.

I've been trying to tell you that like >> I when I play my games every tournament I've ever played and I finished okay, right? Like 200th out of a thousandth is probably my best finish in the biggest tournament. And um I was still always open and reminding people and not trying to catch them out and >> yeah, >> these are my rules. Don't forget them. Like, oh wait, mate, if you do this, you're going to get fucked over something shit. >> Yeah. >> Um and that didn't happen in this game, right? >> And I just realized and it wasn't, as you say, it's a tournament. So, he's completely within his right to do it.

But I just realized I'm more into painting now. We we'd had the podcast for 2 months. I was like, "Fuck it. I'm just" and I and mentally I've switched off completely from So now I'm I'm I was fully on painting, but now Magic has actually grabbed my attention quite quite drastically. >> Yeah. >> Um because it is a very good game. So, I'm looking forward to bringing my deck and spanking your little ass. I've got a good Spider-Man deck. >> Is that Is that the only series you've got at the minute, Spider-Man? Uh, and Lorwin and an old >> is Norwin. Is Norwin a good deck or have you just bought a few boosters and built?

>> No, I bought I bought like five booster collector booster boxes and like four >> Oh, right. So, you got in hard. >> Yeah, of course. It's just my >> only addiction, isn't it? >> I'm going to go in hard on the the Turtles one because obviously that that was a big influence on me growing up, but the art's amazing. That's that's next week, isn't it? >> Yes. It's fucking I'm I'm I'm actually a bit worried cuz I I'm sort of semi vow to not buy much more magic. Um >> I know >> Marvel Marvel's coming out. >> Marvel looks good. Marvel Marvel the full suite as well.

It's commander decks. It's boosters. It's collector's cards. It's >> Yeah. It's not a mini that was >> And then there's Hobbit coming out in August. >> Oh, are they doing Hobbit? >> Yeah. and it looks amazing. >> Well, that's perfect for you. I mean, I'm I'll limit myself to a pre-release on that, but like I did with um Avatar, but um yeah, that's that's obviously going to be your poison, isn't it? >> Well, I've done Lord of the Rings. Me and I now bought a booster box. >> When did that come? Is that >> 2023? It's old.

>> I know. Yeah, because I saw a photo of you two just opening an entire booster box of Spider-Man. So, what do you do? You just bought a booster box each Well, they're 80 quid a booster box. >> Is that it now? >> They're really because no one buys them. I was like, "Wow, cheap." >> Ours are reduced locally. I don't think they're as cheap as 80. But yeah, the thing is the the hardcore players don't like the IPs. >> Yeah. Yeah. I get it as well. And they're not they're they're a bit of a joke in terms of power. They don't have the same power as the rest. >> Yeah. So you bought So you bought a box each with the idea that you just built a deck to play each other that night because you've already you'd already bought three boxes prior, hadn't you?

>> I privately had or two at that point, >> right? Okay. >> And and I bought that boo I bought the collector booster box for 450 quid, which ironically now they're 250. >> Yeah, that was >> I mean they're they're overpriced in my view. I mean even a booster pack is what they're 30 for 20 cards. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh 15 cards, 20 quid. I mean, yeah, for all you listeners, we are we are talking magic and you can just tune off now. Um but yeah, the yeah, in fact, we should just finish and then carry on the conversation cuz who wants to hear us talking about magic? I mean, some people might some people collect magic, but >> well, on the basis we not really talked about painting the entire cast. If they're with us now, they're with us for the duration, aren't they?

>> Well, yeah. I I'll I'll sum up. I love

Magic and I really want to play someone, but I've got no one to play with and I don't really want to go to like the local club and play here. Um, I mean, the the thing I'm enjoying at the minute is I've got an informal group. They used to play Magic. They've jumped back into it, >> but we don't play with the other card players because I'll just get massacred and it'll it'll it'll destroy it for me. I mean, they're they're like a beautiful mind, those people when they put they'll open six booster packs, see the pack, put together something together. I get the impression Arnau is a bit like that though. >> He's not played anything modern. Um, but he knows Magic well. He played it for like three years or something, >> four years when he was younger. Um, and he knows Magic. He's It'd be like me playing Warhammer, I guess, in four or five years or something.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I, you know, >> based mechanics >> and I've done and and the tactics and how to like pressure players and how to try and win games. Like I must have done like 10,000 games of Warhammer or something in two years. So, I um I did play a lot. It's probably not quite that high. Five games a week. >> Yes. 10,000 seems like a big number. >> Well, we sometimes I was playing 15 a week. >> Um but but yeah, like online anyway. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. And and you'd reset after an hour when you realize you're getting spanked and then you could talk through the rest of the game and then start again. Um, yes, he he he he's not he's not beating me badly, but that's because he hasn't got a power deck and I I'm we're both playing like super casual and the way it should be, right? I think at least for now, we you don't want to get into that like casual competitive side, but I can feel myself getting drawn into it.

>> It's It's ironic when I used to walk past the card player section and the I'd be like, why do they spend so much on just cardboard? and you know they're there ripping parts so they don't appreciate and then now I'm completely a card bro now and the miniature painters the miniature players are down there it doesn't interest me at all and there's something about that childhood thing about opening you know like a packet of stickers and looking for the shiny one there's that it's it's tapping into that the I think that's the thing because obviously I got back into the comic books which hit the nostalgia for me it just reminded me of when I was younger and going down to the comic book shop and then the magic is the packets of stickers is, isn't it? It's opening and seeing what you've got >> as an adult. Yeah. And actually and actually being excited. So, what I've just realized now is by organizing. So, I threw away like like this box is full of magic cards. Right.

>> Right. >> Like it's it's it's pretty full, >> right? >> Because they're all my duplicates. So, I only want four of each card. >> Yeah. >> Unless unless I might take them across multiple decks. Um, but it's made me realize now that when I'm going to open a pack, I'm going to know what's I've got. got got need and I'll I'll I'll be like, "Oh shit, I need that card." >> Classic opening pockets. Got got need got. >> Yeah. Yeah. And they'll be like, "Right, that's shinies. Two cards, two stickers." Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. We had So they they took they took the mick out of me because obviously I was playing Dragon Ball Z V.

That's another card game I've been playing. The art in that is beautiful. >> And I sleeved the three the four shiny ones and they're taking the mickey out of me because they were basically saying, "You're cheating because the deck's loaded." I said, "What do you mean?" It says, "Well, you wrote, you know, you've marked your cards, you know." I said, "Honestly, I never thought that at all. I sleeved them because they were shinies." And for me, they were just more precious and needed protecting. Uh, >> rightly so. Rightly so. Yeah. >> I uh I am enjoying it. I I I I'm I'm annoyed at how much I'm enjoying it.

>> Yeah. Cuz I'm scared. >> Yeah, I know. Because of your your your past. I've I've actually bought packets of cars and the guys have gone, "Go on then, open them. Let's see what you got." I went, "No, I'm taking them home." And and it's like on a Saturday morning once I sort the kids out and I'm sat there. I sit there where where my graphic novels are and I'll religiously just like open them and slowly whereas I see rip them open. No, >> that makes me sick actually. >> I I drink it all in. >> I go Yeah. Like literally they'll they'll open them and then go to they'll go to the end where the Yeah. Yeah. and they'll just go, >> "No, no, no. I I look through each one, look at the artwork." >> I'll be interested to see if that changes now. I know literally every fucking card in this deck because I've organized them all.

>> Do you know roughly how many you're missing then from that collection? >> Only the um comic book versions, which in theory, >> you got everything else? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, three booster boxes. >> Yeah, I suppose. So, you know what? I might I might get a booster box. 80 quid. >> It's like I wonder if they've gone up because so many people bought them or not. >> I'm part of part of me is thinking I might wait for the turtles to hit because then they'll drop further. >> Oh, that's interesting. Can they get more cheap though? Surely they can't get cheaper than like production cost like >> Well, they're just taking up shelf space, aren't they? They just want to get rid.

>> 100 quid now on um on Amazon, so it's gone up a little bit. Yeah, I think in my local I think in my local store it's about 90. You know, it might even be 80 like you said. I think it might even be 80 >> because they just want to shift them at that point, right? >> Yeah. Because you're taking up shelf space because >> since then there's been Avatar which came out afterwards. They've had the old the the fairies and elves one. >> Yeah. >> And then and then they've got and then Yeah. Lwin and then they got Turtles in two weeks time. So it's just dead dead money. >> Bloody exciting. That is the truth of it. Um we should wrap up. I just forgot that we're on a cast there for a second.

Um, thank you, Lionel. Um, >> for having me back for a brief period. >> Yeah. Well, next week's another one-on-one with myself and Martin. We're going to dig dig into his origins, his journey from where he became a painter. >> It doesn't last long. >> Yeah. Just like from from now and I did one where we literally go through his whole painting career basically. >> What do you say for mine? That'll be that'll be interesting seeing how he he went in in house. Obviously, >> how bad or good he was at the start as well. >> Yeah. Right. Thank you, boys. That's what I used to say when when they're here.

>> When there are two boys here. Yeah. Thank you, boys. >> Thank you, boy. Right. See you. Right. >> See you later, guys.