Becoming an ’Eavy Metal Painter! The Journey

episode 7, Mini Matters podcast. The best podcast in the world with without doubt the fewest listeners. >> Yeah, >> this is >> that's uh that's the ven diagram I guess. >> Yeah, if you had it like good podcast with lots of listeners, sure up there. >> Yeah. >> But good podcast with no listeners, that's us. And they wouldn't be there, right? >> It is a special episode today. It is the journey. Now, the journey, for anybody who doesn't know, is a thing that we've done once that we were going to do a lot, but we didn't. And it's where we basically go on that person's journey to get to where they are now. But for for Martin's sake, we could literally just call it how I became an heavy metal painter and then everything after.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Clickbait, right? >> Oh, yeah. That's a good good shot. Actually, we should uh we should do something like that. How to become an heavy metal painter. Brilliant. Literally follow these steps and you will become a Yeah. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. Move to Sweden. Um >> so it is >> probably Sweden. Yeah. >> I guess literally. Um so we will we will squeeze a thought of the day in maybe probably at the end. Um, we do have fast as a race car, but it is themed on the journey and this is um the journey and then right now I click the button right and then it like it shows like the intro that everybody will know because we've done it so many times. The journey is so popular. So I'll I'll I'll always say this is the journey, hit the button and then

so that's where we're at now. >> You're doing that now. Okay. Well, I mean it doesn't exist. >> Oh, I see. Yeah. >> But but when I mean Yeah. I mean, we've got the journey jingle, but I feel like it doesn't actually This needs to be its own thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is exactly This is a different thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Live story episode. >> I just had to check. I hit record. Um while I do this, I will quickly tell everybody, I mean, that's not going to take me that long to get to these notes actually, but we did record yesterday. Um, and it's the first time we have lost a whole episode. [snorts] Um, so you know, pour some gin on the floor, whatever it is. Fast as a race car. Fast as a race car. It's of course the jingle for fast as a race car, where I impersonate a four-year-old. [snorts] Anybody who doesn't know Fast as a race car, it's like quick answers. It's pretty self-explanatory, actually. It's 10 questions. We ideally will ask every guest that we ever have on the journey, which will maybe not be anyone else except for me. And if and if Jamie seems

less surprised by my answers, it's because he heard them yesterday. >> It's true. >> And remembers them. So yeah, you might not. >> There has been a a request that I AI your answers in based on lip reading. >> Okay. >> As a Chinese girl. >> Oh, right. Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah. And then I would probably use AI at that point to change your face structure as well. >> Well, obviously. >> And your clothes. requests of that kind are uh common in our Discord, >> which is why I'm not in our Discord, but for the six people who are >> I don't remember our background looking this maybe that's why.

>> Did you just join >> like mine was cutting a bit, you know? >> Yeah, it was it was I think a less a less uh less aggressive work. >> I don't remember it doing that. >> Less aggressive blurridge. You get to see my professionalism is what we do, right? Um, fuck the journey. >> Fastest race car. >> First ever model. >> Blood Angels Benjamin. >> How do you remember that? There's no fastest race car. Current favorite color? >> Uh, Thunderhawk Blue apparently. >> Competition or personal?

>> Competition. >> Yeah. >> Music or TV show? >> Music. Overrated technique. >> I'm going to say NMM. >> Underrated technique. >> Oh, I had a good answer for that. Underrated technique. Um Oh, yeah. So, so my I I should have looked this up better, but it's that un I think I think they call it underpainting. Basically, you do like really saturated colors and then you paint over that and you get Arn Now does it tons. It's great. Yeah, I can't talk about it. Um, one model you regret selling.

>> No, nothing. I've I only do like commissions, so they're being sold. It would have been nice to keep Angon. That doesn't really make sense cuz it's the box art, but that would have been nice to have. >> Like, if you could steal, then that might been Yeah. One paint you admire. >> Oh, no. >> I was hoping you might change it. Um, yeah, makes sense. And, uh, display or gaming? >> Display. Yep. And are you where you thought you would be? >> Um, yeah. Yeah, just about.

>> Okay. >> See, I think that your reactions there, it was clear that we did this yesterday. >> Well, also you knew what you were going to say and I knew what you were going to say. >> Yeah, a little bit. I did. Yeah, it's true. For the listeners, sorry if we seem bored, but that one was like l literally yesterday. But but it's it's true. I could have switched up my answer for a painter I admire. I also admire uh Albert Merto Font. Uh I very much admire Stanton. >> He's crisp as fuck. >> Yeah, he is crisp as fuck >> and and not not his painting. Um lads, I I did have other questions I could have asked you, but I do not want to. So, let

us set the scene. You are a young boy >> gallivanting around the world. Um probably stay at home. Yeah. Um, how did it start? What got you into miniature painting? >> So, um, I the very very very first uh interaction with like miniatures. I think it's similar for a lot of people is that I I I I guess I bought or uh saw other kids have these model kits like World War II tanks and planes and shit and I was into that. I thought that was cool. I've always liked models and miniatures of every kind. I think I was at a friend's house. I must have been like nine or something. And I painted what I I think now was like a skeleton, like a warmer skeleton. He had like chaos warriors as well. And again, you sort of I have the image and now I know what that was. And that was cool. My brother also had her quest, which was awesome.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was like we had loads of board games, but this one had these like zombies and orcs and things. I was like, "What the fuck is this?" So there were all all these like impressions of sort of uh you know like these premonitions almost like I like this but I don't know what it is. And then a friend of mine in school when I was 15 uh basically suggested to me like I should check out Warhammer 40,000 [snorts] and uh and he had Space Marines and we went to a hobby store and I thought the the name Space Marines was ridiculous because it is because like >> obviously >> the what is better? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it was like, so like what?

They're like US Marines but like in space. How like what a basic dumb name that is. Um I >> think I was too young to to to understand how stupid it was. You had the cynicism of a 15-year-old, >> I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a little bit um colored by sort of other sci-fi, I guess. I I just thought they made it too easy on themselves. And now I can really appreciate things like that. Like I love the fact that the original 40k orcs were just we'll spell it with a K and they're space orcs. It's literally space orcs. That's awesome. And space dwarves and space elves. But um anyway, so I I I reluctantly actually kind of reluctantly was like, "Fine, fuck it.

I'll buy one of the Space Marine boxes and then I I need a paint set, so I'll go with the paint set that has Space Marines in it." And I went home and I painted them red because my friend had done them blue and he was like, "Those are called blood angels. That's that's a different." And then I got this >> of course. Well, it's a good point to show actually the blood angels. You actually got it out. Um, >> fucking blurry as shit too. But anyway, you know what it is. >> Supplement, isn't it? >> Right. So, hold on. We will jump to the gallery.

>> We are at the gallery. So, now Oh, you can see actually what I'm showing. Yeah, I can see it. Yeah. So, this is the result of my um uh yeah, the first thing I did and I I got So, it was five of these guys in the paint set and then the multi-art tactical squad and um >> the first multiart tactical squad from 98 and this was in early 1999. And so and I it went from I like painting and it's cool to to have that very analog hobby to like I might want to get more of these. I want to buy like a character and then >> So you paint >> a week or two in?

>> Sorry. What? >> So you literally got the paint set, got the models. Your mates already played or or painted? >> No, they were they were playing. I had two friends in school who played 40k uh just against each other. One of them had an elder army, the other one had a space marine army. Uh they were getting into battle fleet gothic as well at the time which was >> of course Gothic Mheim or Mim. >> It was a good time for the hobby. Obviously again like this is stuff that I kind of pieced together afterwards was like where was Games Workshop in early 1999? But it was just after the release of third edition 40k and they had been playing with second edition rules that they barely understood. So the way I got into the game was yeah, it was just very confusing, but it was also like amazing.

>> I remember one game uh like an Aldar >> um Suphawk Exark got caught on fire like a flamer set fire to it and then it was just flapping around on fire in the game. I was like that's amazing. >> There's more nar like this. >> Yeah, the the third edition uh they dumbed it down a lot, didn't they? But so you got the paint set, you got the models. Um, and you sat down and painted and what were your friends reactions and what did you how did you feel to those reactions like? >> Uh, it's a good question. I I I think I took to painting immediately. I immediately thought this is great. I love doing this. I have an affinity for uh neatness.

>> So, [clears throat] the the Blood Angel you're looking at now obviously won't really win any Golden Demons today, but it was I was very careful to put the paint where it was supposed to go. like the the armor is supposed to be red, nothing else. And >> I like doing the little details and uh I had no idea about things like a primer or uh >> Oh, yeah. Shit. >> I guess I can't see any mold lines, but I didn't really know to remove them. It was all just very much like do try to try to get it to to look as it does on the box and and again as it does in the Blood Angels book. So I I was flipping through that book like cover to cover every day for weeks just absorbing it and it was and it very kind and it quickly became my whole life this hobby was like okay this is all I want to do now. It really is a magical like when I reminisce and think back at the the starting times, we said [snorts] it.

>> Yeah. >> Obviously, no one knows we said it. Um so I didn't need to say that, but >> there was an unbelievable amount of freedom um >> and and joy in just painting something like I've I've got my models. my dad found them in the loft. Um, and they're they're similar to this, but it like when I real I I look back and I realize the kind of hole that I've put or we've put ourselves in >> in seriousness and well, we can go on right to the next things, but yeah. Uh, the next >> Yeah. No, but it's a it's a really good point. I mean, and this is this is then uh later in 1999. They had just released some plastic cat a chance. I got white dwarf. They were talking about how cool they were. Uh, Colonel Schaefer there on the left, uh, from the last chancers.

That would have been 99, maybe early 2000. So, I got an Imperial Guard army, and I painted them in the, uh, Cadian 122nd color scheme, I guess, which was a color variant in the book. And I thought, this is cool. I don't have to do them exactly like they're on the box. I'll do this. I'll do like a city color scheme. Um, I painted a bunch of them and I played loads, played lots of 40k. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> and it was very, yeah, like you say, it was very, very free the whole thing. It was just about as much hobby as possible, as much as I could like afford >> and just uh spend time on all the time.

I was just very into it. But it was all 40k to begin with. It took me a good year or so to to do anything with fancy. >> So, Bug Bugman was the year mark roughly. I mean, what what what I find interesting is to go back, you're not considering getting better, right? We'll see in a minute, obviously. Um >> Yeah. I think I was I think I was finding I find I I was finding every new uh technique, every small improvement was a big deal. Like I remember when I did the highlights on these Space Wolves, well, remember is strong. I vaguely remember when I did them. I was like, "Fuck, this looks amazing compared to the the one model previous." You know, >> when I started doing shading on the skin of the catacons with like inks and putting on highlights and stuff cuz that's what it said to do in White Dwarf, I was like, "Wow, look at the depth." And this was, you know, the first literal first time I did that. So, that that level of improvement from one model to the next is just incredibly inspiring.

Um, I wondered if there's something in it like are are we more free when you're young? Yes. And you're not thinking stuff, right? You're just doing it. But >> you're also seeing such big jumps in early painting compared to now >> if you were to sit down and someone's to show you another technique for painting, you're going to be like, the differences are maybe it's timesaving. It's not going to be monumental, right? I don't think no >> only styles can change now but but >> but like you wouldn't have that same huge jump and I always think like is that what motivated us when we were young the the the fact that we could talk to our friends show them and then we'd improve and be like oh shit look how good I am now to my mates or and we didn't have social media so there was no online it was all in person right like >> um yeah I've thought about I've thought about the lack of Instagram and I mean that's a whole different discussion is like were we better off than we for 15, 16, 17, not having social media, I would say yes, absolutely. But with the

[clears throat] hobby especially, it was for a while, not the whole first few years, but for a while, I would paint a miniature, be super excited of how how good it looked, and then, you know, run to the Warhammer store to show the guys who worked there and to show my friends. >> And that was that was a motivation. Of course, it was. I like I wanted to show it off. I wanted to to show people how good I was getting and then pretty much, you know, I spent like one day, two days painting something and then I showed it off, bought another thing.

>> It was completely >> Oh, God. I got >> No, I was saying it was it was completely free as to which models I would buy and how I would paint them. That's also something that I'm I'm genuinely like a little angry that I can't do better now is just buy one thing, paint it however I want. >> Yeah. just completely like completely free. >> Well, that is technically task masters, but we are all struggling with this

concept because it's become so alien for us. Obviously, it's not truly part of the journey, but I do think it's shaped it like >> Yeah. >> the the the the youth. So, your ecosystem then is your mates, the store, and that's it, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There was White Dwarf magazine. I would I would buy and read. I started subscribing pretty early and I just got a new one every month, obviously. and I would um uh just just digest it. Just it just soak up all the hobby I could get. >> And hobby wasn't really on the internet in in any way close to what it is now.

Even even as much as the internet was a thing in 2000 2001 there wasn't really that kind of um you know we would go on to like portent which became worse and stuff like that but it wasn't anywhere near what social media and also we didn't have the ability to take photos so easily you didn't like you'd have to have a digital camera you'd have to put on your computer like >> absolutely >> I remember my my made it moment would have been getting something in a cabinet rather than like $10,000 likes or some shit, right? Like >> Yeah.

>> Um >> Yeah. And it's funny you should say that. It's exactly what we did. My my my best friend when I was like 17, we would paint loads and as a weird kind of Yeah. like uh like a bar of sort of to be recognized would be to have it in the cabinet of the warmer store. >> Like that was the pinnacle. >> Yeah. >> Was as good as it could get. >> Yeah. Um, and and I remember the first time we did we did some stuff like for the store. They asked us to like paint and convert some orc bikes for Armageddon >> and we spent loads of time in the shop anyway. So they were like, "You guys want to do this for us?" And we were basically were like hired, >> but obviously did it for free cuz they were just Yeah. They were just exploiting us like child labor is a >> But they models and shit, wouldn't they?

>> Yeah. No, they did probably actually. Yeah. But it was and it was like put them in the shop and it was Yeah, it was great. It was just awesome. We did that and we eventually built like a gargant as well. The >> But it was just that kind of doing things uh that someone else wanted you to do and >> constantly having the social aspect of other people being impressed by what I did and and how fun it was to play in those big participation games around Armageddon and all of that. That was like a massive massive point where I made the hobby my whole life.

>> Yeah, I I I Yeah, I can relate. I remember going to one of those Armageddon things and there was like 40 people playing on one table. So, you've got a noticeable markup now in in quality, I think. Right. Like these are starting to look crisper. Whoops. Um like Yeah. Well, I mean it shows you the difference. And this is what in 3 years difference is it? >> Yeah. Yeah. just about um a little less actually. This is uh the um the White Scar Army was like summer 2001, so I'd been I've been at it for 2 years, which now feels like a very short time.

And at that point, I was like three Space Marine armies in, you know, >> balls deep into the >> Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. And it was very very like I you know there were a lot of ideas all the time of things I wanted to do like build games tables and do another army and another army and like between these space marine armies I would have done uh undead army for warm fancy. I did the I started with bore master cuz you know that was a thing in 2001 and >> there was just a lot of like um yeah that that constant involvement. Now looking back at it and looking at all these models, I'm like, "Wow, I was really into this hobby." Like even more than it felt at the time because I was also in school, like I had other shit to do.

>> Yeah. But they look um like I look at these models. I mean, the Elder, which we're going to jump to, is is another big jump up, but um you can still see these are the markings of a a true you've bought into heavy metal completely because it's all that we knew, right? That was the whole key. >> That's right. >> And and we didn't want to do anything else. We we're only aspiring to do that level basically, right? >> Yeah, it's it's very true. There was a an absolutely simple and and obvious pinnacle of painting which was heavy metal. That was just it. It wasn't a choice then uh at all. It wasn't something that I thought was a style. That was just the best you could paint. Um the only kind of exception I I should mention the only other thing that I was introduced to very early was Golden Demon and I remember a few people would enter Golden Demon in that in those years like like Jacob Neielson.

>> Well, in the UK, right? Obviously. >> Yeah. Yeah. The UK was the only one that mattered to me anyway. >> Yeah. But yeah, and um >> and so there were some Golden Even entries where I I guess I could see like this is a little different from the box art style or something and that was also very very inspiring and those became like that you know you you uh at that age I think you you're quick to like find your your heroes basically the names of people you look up to and Jakob Neielson was one of those for sure. Matt Parks was another one but he is definitely heavy metal.

>> Yes. >> Yeah. So this is the Elder Army. Uh now we've jumped to >> 2007 officially >> 2007 and then we discussed this and and I think we agreed that 2006 is when the plastic war walkers and wraith lord came out. >> Yes, the guardians sound to you. >> The storm guardians came out later than the 99 normal guardians. So these are also similar. >> Storm Guardians would have been for the Codex Craft World release in 2002ish. >> The storm is this right. Yeah, >> something like that. And then a few years later, they had more plastic kits and uh more aspect warriors.

>> And what I noticed is the jump up again, right? The crispness and the so the time away didn't you didn't paint much or any at all in those four years, but you still you were just older and able to I guess realize more that you need to focus and blah blah blah. Right. >> That's right. And I I I had those years to uh so essentially the people that were into the hobby when I was when I was 17 18 years old, they left. They weren't super into it anymore and I didn't feel motivated to continue doing it. I think a little bit. It was just kind of the the combination of being older and also having a little bit of a hobby burnout. It just started to feel a little less important to me and there was a little less of a point. And then coming back to it was when I realized that all I do all day is work. And I like having a hobby where I can sit down and do something with my hands just for myself. And I just it was really one of those like I can't not have this. I can't not be interested in it. And I I still come back to like flicking through white dwarf and just being into this

world. So I decided to build on an elder army of all things. And I u I did that over Yeah. Good choice of all things you can do. [clears throat] So I Yeah. So I just really slowly just painted an elder army. It would have been like two, three units a year. Um. >> Oh, okay. Interesting. So you were taking your time, but you weren't painting every day. Obviously, you were painting when you wanted to. >> No, no, it was it could be weeks in between. So that having being rusty is another weird thing where now I notice if I'm working on a project and I do paint every day. Um I mean I'll get more comfortable like >> if I'm out of it for a couple of weeks I feel like you know just a little bit like need to remember how to do it. And this would have been >> yeah like weeks weeks at a time when I wasn't painting and then I'd come back do something finish a unit put it on the shelf um not paint for a while. And this far here was definitely like the one thing for that army where I was really aiming to push the painting uh looking at a lot of current heavy metal stuff at

the time and trying to match that. >> Yeah. I mean like like I said in in not in old episodes this was the I had this army in my radar so it it it crossed borders and boundaries. Um, it it might have been specific that I was looking for [snorts] >> elder. Yes, that >> Yeah, cuz you mentioned you found this possibly on the GW website or just googling. >> No, I think I Oh shit. I fuck googling probably >> have to remember.

>> What was it? Army of the month. See if I can find >> Yeah, they might have done something like that. Army of the month. Um, >> okay. Well, yes, maybe googling our fucking I might have even been in the old archives. Um, >> all right. >> But but it it it I I knew it enough >> to save it, right? >> Yeah, that's what it was. You said you had saved photos of my army long before we met. >> Yeah. Yeah. Army of the month, right? I can show you. Oh, no, I can't cuz we're showing Oh, yeah. Wait, am I How are we doing this? We got the gallery. I'm only sharing for you. Okay.

>> All right. >> Martin Peterson. There you go. Stockholm. GW Stockholm. And I saved this file. This is very, very interesting. It's for everybody. I mean, I don't care. This is what I want to look up. And I saved the file in 2012. So there's your answer. >> So after >> 2012, the hobby was kicking off in 2012. >> Yeah. I mean, this was this was when I'd come back and like come back big time. >> So, also, did you have a girlfriend when you came back by any chance?

>> Like, most people get back into painting when they either settle down. >> Oh, I see. >> Married or >> uh if you're single, but yeah, like >> I was just wondering what the timeline's here. What are we talking about? No, but it was Yeah, it's a good shout because I I did um I I lived in Japan for a short while and I came back and and for whatever it was almost like something happened there that I I uh like the bunch of new plastic orcs came out in 2010 and I was just like, man, I fucking like Warhammer and I went back and I Yeah, I decided to be I decided to be a hobbyist to not to no longer hide Oh, look at that. Look at these crisp photos. Perfect. It's great.

That's uh that's that Max Filet graphic design in the background, by the way. >> Oh, really? >> Oh, yeah. Um >> I decided to be a Yeah. See, honestly, that's what it is. I It was no longer just a like a a small thing that I would do occasionally and and hide from the world. Uh I I was like, "No, I'm going to I'm going to actually do this." Mhm.

>> And around that time, incidentally, I also made friends with Max File, the aforementioned Max File and uh Roger uh Roger Axelson, and then Stanford. >> And especially those three would we we had this kind of little four Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles camaraderie >> like egging each other on, improving. >> Yeah. Blah blah blah. >> And that beca and we and we sort of Yeah. Yeah, we all kind of came together around the same time with this um same sort of motivation. It was basically Roger moved to Stockholm. He was good at painting. He liked Warhammer. Max was working in the store and was the only one there that really really knew how to paint or cared about painting. And I was kind of the one regular who cared about painting and was into that. And I hadn't competed in Golden Demon for like seven years. And then we met and um the store manager >> and this is after 2009 is it?

>> This is in late 2009 actually. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And and we um uh or well yeah anyway and I I um so I we basically we met the the the four of us started hanging out. We started hanging out in the store after hours. So the store closes and they would have like gaming nights >> and then the manager just liked me and liked Roger and thought we were cool guys so it was like you guys can come and hang out. We weren't super into gaming, so instead we would just sit and paint, >> which just ended up being like a nice table with all of us painting together.

>> And that eventually evolved into like a couple of nights every week >> and we and then uh Max and myself and two others decided to well Roger too, I guess. Yeah, Roger was there. we decided to go to um uh Golden Demon in 2011 >> and that was sort of the start of the new Golden Demon uh career. >> Yep. Cuz now we're in end of 2009 when you started doing these, but this is 2009 2016. There's a there's a really clear clear now jump like >> um these are basically every metal models like obviously >> yeah pretty close like >> they're consistent as well.

>> Um you could e and the style is is obviously very reminiscent of it. I mean it is just that style right basically. >> Um so at this point you've not decided or realized you want to work for metal or is it on your mind? It's a it was something that I think it was a little bit of a dream uh when I'd started. So in those early years when I was in school and just painting all the time I think there was something like wow imagine one day if I could be this good and do this. >> And then when I came back and when I was painting all the time with Max and Roger we were talking about it as a kind of um first of all they were much better than we were. That was just a fact. Like we're we're not this good.

>> So one day maybe we could be on their level and that would be cool. But they're so much better than we are. But >> there was something that happened that maybe made you realize that they're better. >> Uh yeah, there was there was one specific moment in late 29. Yes, 2009. You see, we we might have talked about this yesterday, but there was one thing and it was it was it was a little bit related to these space, but it was it's not important actually. It was just that there was they had the 10th anniversary of the Games Workshop Stockholm store in October 2009 and um myself and Max were there. Um they had uh for the store anniversary they had uh Ana, so Ana from the heavy metal team and Jez Goodwin came over as like guests and they uh had a little painting competition where you would submit an army and uh they would pick the best one and I won that competition. So day for me and I got uh as a >> one of the rewards awards I got a Space Wolf's like battle force little army thing

>> and that's why I started my Space Wolves army. Uh but the other thing was Anna brought along a couple of heavy metal miniatures. I think uh Netor Stormaller might have been one. There was a scaven in miniature as well and a couple other things. And Max and I for the first time ever got to actually like take them out, hold them in our hands, look at them properly. And I remember both of us really understanding like, oh, it's that fine. It's that good. >> We'd seen our stuff. We could literally compare them and I could have my Space Wolves and look at their shit and was like, "This is very, very good." And it's and the photos don't quite show how smooth and how clean and how perfect everything is.

And that was a real light bulb moment, I think, for the both of us. Um, and I guess it sort of inspired us in like slightly different ways. It wasn't just, oh, you know, we have to up our game. Uh, it was just kind of like this is um >> like what's achievable almost or >> Yeah. And this will help us kind of inform a little more when we see photos of things like what it actually looks like. So, it it was it was an interesting sort of calibration of what the heavy metal miniatures actually look like in hand. >> Yeah.

>> And it's interesting to hear people now when they go to Warner World say, "Oh, I had no idea it looked like that." >> But you would have some idea. >> Yeah. >> Um >> No, but it's diff It is always different, I think, when you see it in real life. It's It's definitely true. >> Like, >> yeah. And I mean, I was there a week ago for the first time in a few years, and this was even the same for me. I was looking at some of the new releases, the Red Corsair stuff, and I thought, damn. >> Cuz I'd only seen photos of it. >> Yeah, it's so that >> doesn't make sense. >> Yeah, exactly. And and we when we finally had it in our hands and we could see like this is this is what's up. Um >> so then we shit.

>> Yeah, that's from the shop from the Games Workshop uh Stockholm store. That's all the Eldar I think. Yeah. um where it says hobby showcase that was part of another thing that we started doing at the time which eventually became our blog Stockholm war paint and [snorts] this is the same group of people that I was talking about myself Max Rogers uh eventually Patrick Sand Philip Hawking joined that my friends Jonathan David were in there as well but it was really just us wanting to do a bunch of cool hobby things together and the hobby showcase was this kind of idea of Um, we would do, well, in this particular example, we all paint one space marine and we show them off to show like different cool ways you can paint space marines and we did that with a bunch of new kits that came out.

>> It's I don't understand how your store is so popular. Like maybe I was too young or something, but like my local Brent Cross, it took me an hour to get there on the bus. Um, like I remember there being like two locals and then one other local who was like was he a pedo? I he definitely liked the hobby, but like >> there was something shady about him. Like even back then I was like this guy's weird. But I don't Yeah, it must have been my age cuz I was 14. Like I didn't have this social group where you'd all go back and stay and paint and you know what I mean?

So, it's pretty good that you had it like having >> Oh, yeah. No, it's insane and I know that it's very unique. I've heard a lot of people say this and and I I I don't think it can be really overstated how much of a difference uh Baz has made to all of our like hobby lives. So, Baz Morrison was the manager of Games Workshop Stockholm. Not going to guess the years, but it was for about eight years or so, and it was during this time. and he's now the manager of the Warmer World store and he's amazing >> and he is like the best manager for Games Workshop stores. I know they used to send him to places that weren't doing too well and then they started doing well and um >> he he was like like he's a lovely guy and very social but he just had this uh ability to like bring people together and this was like the best example of that. he just kind of allowed us to come in and do all this cool stuff and do it under the Games Workshop Stockholm banner.

>> Yeah. >> And um we were and we were and you know and then like inspiration, motivation, creativity and excitement all just comes automatically. >> Yeah. >> Um >> and that's really what happened here. like we had this uh lease to just do a bunch of cool shit and we did for several years and that also helped spur on this uh like we helped each other get better. So this was also when we started getting interested in Golden Demon >> and Max and I went to World Model Expo eventually and this world kind of opened

up. >> Okay. So you've got [snorts] um we've done early Yes. You started 99 2003 then you took a break for 4 years. 2007 to 2009 is the Elder Army which you just bought blood. Space Wolf Army was was a long one. 7 years apparently 99 >> apparently I guess. >> But >> sorry when did when did I say that was? >> 2009 to 2016. But you've got lots of Golden Demon entries which we can go over now. >> Yeah. Yeah. I did loads of other stuff in those years. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Let's do that. We won't do them all, but we can do >> Oh, I Hold on. Okay, so this was your first Golden Demon entry. >> Yes. And this was uh the third time I entered the Bugman that you saw on my the first few miniatures. That was the first thing I entered into Golden Demon in the >> You traveled all the way to the UK >> just for Bugman. Yeah, I did. Um >> and that was me and uh and my best friend at the time, Henning, who was also a huge hobbyist. We went we both entered some random crap and then >> the year after we both got finalist pins which was huge >> shit.

>> Um I'm a little more arrogant when it comes to finalist pins these days. I don't >> really register them but at the time it was great. And then I won something in 2002 and it was huge and I really kind of um that was like this massive hobby nourishment >> and that's this that was this model then was it? >> That was this Yeah. And this so this is a golden demon winner. >> Yeah, it got a bronze. >> Got a bronze in 2002. The dual category uh was pretty new at the time. >> I see. >> Um they just started and I thought what a cool idea. Let's go for that.

>> 2002. Jesus. 17. Okay. 16 actually. Because >> I'm pretty sure Demon is in April normally, wasn't it? Or >> Oh, no. You're right. Your birthday is quite late, isn't it? No, Gold Demon. This was in like September. >> But wasn't Golden Demon early. Oh, fuck it. Yeah, maybe. >> I thought it was not at the time. It was in September, early October. But anyway, that's >> and another fun thing that happened with this, just as a as a side note, they used to do winners days and they they now they've completely stopped and they actually did one in 2019, but they used to do winners's days back in the day, which was like they invited all the winners, everyone who won something to warmer world and uh they gave you a tour around the studio, including like into the miniature designers in heavy metal just like to see what they're doing and hang out with them and see all the new stuff and then they gave you a bunch of free miniatures.

>> Damn. >> Which when you're 18 Yeah. It was like >> like working there is very much like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but that was like literally that, you know, you came in and was like, "Look at all this cool shit." >> And I came home with a lot of uh excited information to my friends about what was coming. >> Well, it's really cool to to to give leaks out like that cuz there's no photos or social. You're not worried. No, only it was word of mouth, right? >> Yeah. And it's so funny. I like they didn't give a fuck at the time and they and I can't remember anyone really standing there like writing things down.

We just all went home and was like, "Yeah, there's a bunch of cool stuff coming." >> Yeah. It's It's just basically the meme of um there's no phones anywhere. >> So, congratulations on your bronze by the way in 2002. >> And then there was a little bit of a jump. >> Yes. >> This is literally 10 years later. Shit. >> And I And the next thing I won was a silver, which was very rewarding. >> So, you do like Space Wolves. >> I do. And I was reminded recently of how similar this unit is to the one I did last year.

>> I was just about to say it. Yeah. Same even the same color with a black fucking librarian. Although he's maybe not a librarian, I don't know what he is. Lieutenant or whatever. >> Um, and you've added a wolf in there. Um, one question not related to how do you do these bases? because this is what I've wanted to do as a kid forever. >> Mhm. >> As a kid, >> so this is this is what we did uh before the rules were rewritten to say they just put them all on one base. Yeah. >> They had to be they had to be on their original bases before. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh and the good thing about this, I will say, and and that's still true, is like you can the the judges can just take off each miniature and have a look at it separate. I know it breaks the immersion and but I I do somehow it I fucking like it like in my head >> like when it's a unit or something and you're not you're not trying to tell a story. This still makes sense cuz you're really reminded oh it's a unit.

>> Yeah. >> But then again you get units who are like like Tony's unit. And the fun the funny thing is as well is there was a really I don't know if I was uh I don't know if it started as this is my wolfguard unit for my army. I should enter in the golden demon or if it was I have to make my golden demon entry game legal, but I actually played loads of games with these guys. >> This is just from my army and and honestly like the quality isn't that much different from the army stuff. Um, so I entered my wolf guard unit and wolf priest and also a dreadnot from my army and they both uh took something away from golden demon. So that was very um cool.

>> Kind of says something about golden demon in 2012. >> It's level. What are you doing in the meantime to like improve? Are you focusing? Are you Cuz really I guess this whole thing should have been me trying to get information out of you how you became the heavy metal painter. [snorts] But but like >> that's what the listeners want. Yeah. >> Yeah. But I haven't really focused on that. Like like are you conscious at this time to improve? Like has your mindset changed at all? Are you still as a kid or are you much more It's not cynical at all is it really? But like I want this to be perfect. I want this to be perfect.

>> Yeah. This is this is every every >> Yeah. It's much more meticulous. It's m it's much more about being perfect as you say. Uh, it's I guess cynical in that sense of like not being as free, not being as crazy with conversions and ideas. Um, I mean, this unit has way more conversion work than the one I did last year. And I think a lot of that is just down to allowing for things to not be as perfect and as clean. Um I um I was definitely with every single thing I painted. I mean like you know not just a model but like this head should be better than that head should be better than >> and uh there was a constant strive to get better. And there was that at that I know for that year definitely like me and Stian and Max were painting until about 1:00 a.m. every night for like two weeks before we went to Golden Demon. Me and Ste would take like

the night bus home >> and it was it was just this constant drive to and from what I remember it wasn't even competitive against each other. like me and Stan both entered the squad car category and we were like yeah I hope I win something but I definitely hope he wins something too >> and like I could see the stuff they were working on I thought wow that looks amazing so it was just it was a great almost collaborative process and we would constantly ask each other for feedback and for like what do you think we should do with this and so there's a lot of stuff where I'm I guess it would you know color choices and markings and things might have been one of their ideas um so that was a really great time to do this as well. It's >> like a big Swedish sex party, but the sex is >> exactly like that basically.

>> Yeah. >> I can't see any diff different like it's um it's I'm it's it's cool. It's slightly envious. I'm thinking about it now. like did you get or was it because you had these people around you that you're able to always push yourself and stay motivated and cuz cuz you know I didn't know anybody when I painted ever like until I was >> um well in fact I don't even know when the fuck I started meeting people 5 years ago four six years ago I'd never really spoken to anybody who painted cuz everyone in the store was painting and they were like yours is good but they didn't really care and I didn't you know >> um >> and I think having those people keep it's not grounded but they force you like you say you you have to improve cuz they're improving and you don't want to be left behind right >> and >> and it's honestly it's it's very much like you know now sometimes I go to the gym like like everyone else and then I um I mean I think anyone can recognize the difference of going by yourself and

trying to motivate yourself and then going to the gym and you've got so many sets and so many reps to do and so much weight and you're like, "Fuck, I'm tired. I'm just going to go home." Whereas, if you're there with someone else, especially if someone is like expecting you to show up, you're going to show up. >> Yeah. >> And if they're going to stay and do another couple of sets or do another exercise, you're probably going to do that, too. >> And it's exactly like that, really. Like, the fact that we were there until 1:00 a.m. is because we were there together until 1:00 a.m. There's no way I would have just stayed up until >> Yeah. Like, I have a full-time job. I have to be there at 9:00 and I'm going to sit and paint until >> Exactly. Yeah.

>> So, it was really that was just constantly like doing this together and and being having the same kind of commitment. Um that that that made a massive difference. >> Yep. I can I can see why and I think uh everybody should get that and stop being on social media. So, where are we? We do we have another one from This is Golden. So, are we getting close to 2017? >> Yeah, we've we've This is not entirely in order. Now, we're on to 2014, but um >> Brilliant. Then we're fine.

>> There was a couple of things in between here, but yeah, I did I did four entries for uh 2014. And I won a single bronze. Oh, this is 2015. This is the good stuff. >> So, you're getting closer now to heavy metal, right? Crispness and and joy and happiness. I interestingly would would have thought you improved a lot at heavy metal. We'll get there when we get there, right? But yeah. >> Yeah, we'll get there when we get there. And I think um I can sometimes feel a little bit of a disappointment in not just like why isn't the quality going up further, but also this creativity that we were talking about. But anyway, that doesn't matter. So, this is where I'd gotten to like again there was a there was a bar. There was a this this this level that I was trying to reach in terms of finesse, smoothness, fine edge highlights. It was just really that it was just technique and finish.

>> Yeah. >> And now I'd gotten to the point where like heavy metal painters were seeing my work at these events and were like, "Wow, this is really fucking impressive." >> Yeah. >> Which of course was a huge deal for me. Uh I was I was over the moon to get that kind of recognition. >> Um and now like who gives a fuck what they think, you know? Yeah, fuck those guys. >> Different person now. >> Is this still I I don't know where to stop. [laughter] >> That's right. This is 2016. Um, this is really good. Like the the base is weird, but the model is fucking awesome. I >> I almost thought about bringing it again last year cuz this paint job is sick.

Um, >> I like because it's like >> obviously it's the pavement, right? But a part of me also likes to imagine it's a wall from a um from a shower. >> Yeah. I feel like it should have been a proper brick wall and instead it's like tiles like floor tiles tiles. >> But that's that's cool. No, I I I think it's unique. >> Yeah. It's all right. It's all right. I I don't know what kind of uh uh effect it's really selling, but it's Yeah, it's all right. It's pretty cool. The colors work with the space. >> Exactly. >> Um but this I like. And then um I didn't win anything for this. And then the next one I think is this which I did win a silver for in the 40k single category.

And this was again where I was able to compare this to the heavy metal one and like Darren Leam painted one of his own and I was starting to see that like yeah I'm actually kind of there now like I've reached >> qualitywise I can do heavy metal paint jobs. >> Mhm. And this was also crucially uh by this point Max had joined the heavy metal team and I had like a person on the inside >> in terms of comparing my own work and also learning more about what the job was like.

>> Yeah. >> And my sort of idea of I shouldn't work with my hobby because then I'm going to grow tired of it was eroding. And I was realizing that actually it's probably pretty fun. and it's in another country. [snorts] Um, okay. So, we'll jump back now. So,

this is now the heavy metal starting, right? So, how did you get the job? Um, and we already kind of know why you got the job >> cuz you loved it, but but around just the Yeah. Like how how do you become an heavy metal painter basically? >> Well, it's changed a little over the years. So when I joined there wasn't uh like specifically then I think before and after they've had trainee miniature painters and now they've changed that word to associate miniature painter because it sounds more like you work in a bank.

>> But at the time there was no position like that. It was just you joined and then boom you're you're working. >> Um basically they uh they didn't hire a lot of people for a couple of years. So they had an opening. I found out about it through Max and at that time I was good friends with Aiden Daly and uh basically had that kind of a you know a foot through the door. They knew who I was. I knew about the job. I put together a little portfolio of my favorite paint jobs and I wrote a really good letter and uh I write good letters.

And then um they I got an interview. Um I think I must have done one interview uh via video chat and then they invited me over which felt very >> cool. They paid for like a hotel and they met me in person. I got to sit and paint with some of the guys and um I believe we were two or three uh applicants at that time. They had narrowed it down and they wanted us to sit with the team and paint with them to see >> brutal >> who was cool.

>> Brutal if it did feel not so great. Uh from what I remember my my work the painting that I did on that day was not the best. >> Even among that group it was not great but they felt like the social well the uh yeah the the the >> team fit I think it's called the team fit. Yeah. which was of course and this is something that Max pointed out very early was like oh you remember all that time we spent sitting around the table painting together >> paying dividends now yeah >> yeah so this what we're looking at right now is the very first go back >> I'll go back yeah I'll go back leave it with me >> this is the very first box art that I did which was back box would always differentiate between front of box and back of box for obvious reasons >> and this was And you're feeling any kind of pressure at this point? And are you worried? Are you like pressure?

>> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Like you're >> Yeah. >> And and and obviously before you've worked by yourself and got feedback from from your mates or whatever. And what's happening now in the studio? Is it um someone's telling you how to paint or they just give you the models and they're like you just fucking do it? >> Schemes, recipes. >> Yeah. This was another thing that I realized and and and uh uh which takes a lot of that pressure off and that's definitely even more so the case now is that there's a ton of uh R&D before any project whatever it is even a new ultramarine squad there will be loads of preparation and um recipes uh method like if there's any new part of that model like this this model has a new gun what do we do with that it's never going to be down to like one person to just figure that out.

>> Uh so with these guys, I think this color scheme was already done in Photoshop and uh Max I guess had written down recipes for all the different parts of these models, everything. >> So >> I think maybe the golden metal didn't have recipes, but like the blue, even the little purple tassels, all of that was written out how to paint. >> Shit. It's a bit like um that bloke who made that special music and he was deaf. Um, >> thank >> Yeah. Like Max was doing this without painting himself, but >> Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

>> Like, did it I mean, you probably knew this already, right? Because Max would have told you that's how the heavy metal team paint, but didn't you feel that your creativity was getting eaten away or you're just like, do you know what? I'm so happy to be here that it doesn't matter. >> It's a really good question. I think a little bit you feel like having having all of the questions answered takes a lot of the creativity out, but because there's always going to be um an opportunity to be that person yourself, to develop those recipes and to come up with that, there's always room to to be creative anyway. And I think with some models that would come like with that project, you know what I mean? So the the next thing after this might have been >> something that didn't have everything written down or >> Yeah. Okay. or some shit, right?

>> Yeah. Angrod would take a while to to work up to. But yeah, exactly. Stuff like that would come along. And I I said, you know, week two of working for heavy metal. I was like, if we got if if you guys if we ever do uh Stitches of Battle again, I want to be part of the development of that. And they said, well, >> yeah. And then um soon enough I started seeing some early sisters mock-ups and I just said like you know put me in coach >> because I think that that's one thing that I never um until we started talking like really grasped was the whole um concept of of if you're interested and you push for it you will probably get that project right.

>> Yeah. Like >> yeah, Angron was one of those where I I realized that not realized, I just knew that if I if I tell them I want to paint Angron and if I tell them I don't want to paint anything else, if I just make sure that they understand that like I'm okay with missing out on everything else, just give me this one thing. And they were like, "Yeah, done. Cool." >> Yeah. >> And uh and you showed that you can meet your deadlines and that you can collaborate and that you can develop all these color schemes and stuff. So yeah, it's there's loads of space in that work to be creative and to paint for what feels like yourself, if that makes sense, to paint stuff that you actually want to paint the way you want to paint it, >> which I think is a really good natural thing to allow uh the paints to do cuz then you get that >> that get that energy. You work late probably without realizing it maybe and you you know it's a it's a great way to suck extra um energy joy out. No, not not suck the joy energy and and hours and out of people. I think the the downside is you get a situation where clearly no one like Blood Angels um and

the sculpts are shit and the paint jobs are shit and [laughter] >> clearly [snorts] >> but but I yeah like well really if you if you look at the the differences in in [clears throat] some of the projects you can see there's love in one and not in the other, right? I think that's probably it is true. I can't I don't actually know anything about the Blood Angels release. I'm not just being diplomatic, like I don't know who did that or why. I know there's people in the studio who absolutely love Blood Angels, but I know that there's been a few projects where one designer uh will be absolutely in love with a an AR a range or part of the background like

like you know I've said before Maxim Corb and Black Templars that's his favorite thing and he was project lead for the design of that and they came out fucking amazing. He did hell himself. He did the Emperor's Champion himself. And I think you can tell like that's what happens when someone really really >> wants imagine I could help design the Elder the level I'm going to go towards it, right? And and >> Exactly. Yeah. Like how much you're going to commit to that. And that's and it's really good. I mean, there's nothing there's nothing weird or or complicated about that. You just you have someone who really really cares and who loves that stuff. Um, I I got to help out with the sisters, which to be fair wasn't that much development work. We had loads to go on. It was more about like writing down the recipes and figuring out what we wanted to like codify in terms of do they all have white hair, stuff like that.

>> And then um and then just all the different versions of the new troops and stuff. But I still really love that side of Warhammer 40k helps. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I see it as a general positive and some small stuff slips through. >> Yeah, >> basically. >> So So yeah. So at this time, uh what I did with this folder just for the people looking at these photos, I just put in a bunch of stuff I painted, including what I thought was some favorites, but I realized I forgot some favorites. So this is a color variant that I did for the Sisters of Battle. Um >> so I remember well >> always in love with the sisters. Uh, I think the first the first photo would have been the uh Genesteeler cult, which is still one of my favorite paint jobs that I did.

>> Very good. I I I didn't realize they were that old as it were. They look like they came out yesterday. >> The aberance. >> Yeah, they just look I've just I just don't see them. I guess I'm not used to see that's a better way of >> This is another cool one. Um, >> yeah, I know that one well as well from my war gaming days with TTS where they've scanned >> Oh, nice. basically the models from the website. >> Um, and his uh and his brain dead homies from the Black Templar range. >> Feel sorry for them really.

>> I think they're living a good life. Maybe >> they don't have to code all day. And this is the second uh kit that I worked on which is also I didn't stek and these were >> It's interesting you've stippled the breast. Um like >> have I >> It looks like >> Oh, he's Yeah. Yeah. I tried to make it smooth which was a >> bit of a point of contention in every middle you know >> in my in my mind you normally wouldn't be afforded such time um like to do I can't get the mouse up there like >> no that's exactly right >> so how did you manage to get the time to do it >> just did it >> working evenings and yeah pretty maybe I saved some time with the other parts I think I just committed to making these good because it was like a couple of my my second project ever, you know? So, I was like, I'm gonna do this.

>> But yeah, it was a it sounds weird that you would spend this time like arguing with people, but it really was a whole thing with like blending cloaks and and and fabrics like, "No, we do edge highlights down the length of a leg." And I was like, "No, that doesn't look right. It's stupid." >> How are you arguing with these people like when you've got no >> mildly? >> Yeah. Yeah. like >> they're all British and it's very >> introverted nerds. Yeah. It's all I mean you we discuss right and when it comes to things like >> oh you know you can't spend too much time blending you're like it's it's fine I'll I'll make it work if it's just something I'm doing.

>> Yeah >> for myself. I mean as a just I'm the only painter. >> Um yeah we saw some leagues of Voltan just then. Um that was also one of the projects where I did some work with the development um along with Max and Connor Richardson which was amazing as another one of those things where like we talked about squats as a joke for like 25 years they were just like no they're not going to come out and then all of a sudden it's on the horizon and I was like I really want to help out to >> make this happen >> and all leading up to this.

>> Yeah, this was essentially Yeah, >> this this is your um this is your like I don't know, you know, Ter Terminator 2 from the Ter Yeah. From the >> like this is the the the big cheese, right? You you didn't know it would be so difficult or a bigger project or you had an idea or you like why would you take this project on? I um I honestly it was a little bit um like I was really afraid of it because it was going to be so much work and because it was so important. I was very intimidating. But that's that was also something where I was like look I I just can't be a pussy about it. I just have to say yes, agree to do it and then if it sucks, it sucks. Like it's I'm just going to push through. Um and I did paint this remotely which was also weird. I painted this uh this was at the kind of tail end of the pandemic lockdown in the UK >> and so I was painting this from Sweden and >> and what's the process here like um you

you have meetings before you say I want to do it and then they have some Photoshops ideas or they um >> and I I did some Photoshop ideas and they did uh which is another thing that I mean it's not particularly interesting to share but they'll like sometimes they will 3D print a version of the miniature you're going to paint at 50% So small. >> Yeah. So half the size. >> I see. >> And the reason then is that you can quickly block in colors to see what they would look like. >> You literally do sketches on something cuz cuz Photoshop would have been on a a 3D model image, [snorts] right? Cuz you wouldn't have had the thing printed. I guess >> Photoshop.

>> What do you mean? [snorts] >> So Photoshop like in my head you take I take a picture of this miniature and then I I photoshop. Obviously yours is is 3D print sculpted. So you wouldn't have had the the But you're obviously printing it. I see now. And then >> Yeah. Yeah. And it is it's both. So I'll I'll do a Photoshop sketch on just a photo or like a render, but yeah, a 2D image and just to get some ideas of um in this case, you know, a lot of it was like a lot of the again a lot of the questions were answered before I started. We knew he was going to have brass armor. He was going to be red. Um it's very unlikely that the wing membranes are going to be any other color than black. A lot of that stuff was just it's probably going to be this.

Yeah, >> I knew that his sword was not the like official black blade, but it was a it was going to be a black sword that would look cool. >> So, it's stuff like that that sort of just I'll do this and then I'll try other if there's any variation I can try just to have tried it just to show off like this is what we're not going to do. >> So, I think I might have done a couple other versions where he had I don't know, black armor or something and we just immediately was like nope, we're obviously not going to do that. >> [laughter] >> And then when you had that, I could start with this 50% 3D print. Uh just >> that would have been cool.

>> Sketch some stuff out. >> You should have kept >> Yeah, that would have been cool. >> Should have kept that. >> That would have been cool. >> Um >> um and then um uh and then this one I remember was quite sympathetic to sub assemblies. And I just painted >> so much of this in parts. Uh like all of the armor I just painted separately and did a bunch of airbrushing to get the metallics down. It was pretty pretty straightforward. Honestly, >> it looks intimidating in the size of things and the small bits and and just all the pieces, right? And >> and um it's it's what I've realized a little bit is most of these large scale things can't they they lean a little bit away from heavy metal as and by that I mean like uh there are shadows and there are emphasis on different parts of the model. I feel like everything is painted though. you can see everything, but like I feel like his face, you've done a good job on on highlighting the face over, you know, and the the highlight. It might just be the photo. I don't know.

You told me, but yeah. >> No, thanks. Uh I think there's a little bit of room for anything that's like organic to move away from uh not move away from edge highlights, but yeah, just to make it a bit more blendy and to work a little bit more with directional lights and stuff like that. >> So, yeah, sure. There's uh

>> if you want >> there's always no but there's always that that um mix of styles. >> You want to try to make it as interesting as it can. But and yes, it's true with bigger monkeys. >> Like you if if you fully did the same that you do on a 28 mil space marine, >> I think it wouldn't it would be harder to digest like >> Yeah. And I think as well, one of the things with uh models like this, which is really one of the most fun things about him, is there's just one Angron.

There's no squad of Angrons. >> So whatever little thing you do with him, it doesn't really affect anything else. >> So it becomes the the basis of what Angron looks like, right? Basically. >> Yeah. And it's just it's just um it doesn't affect anything else. So, like I I when I was working on this, I also did like the development work for the world eaters. And all I did was I painted one Berserker and I got like here's the red armor, here's the brass trim done. And that's just how someone else is going to paint loads of berserkers and then I'll do Angron. And if I decide to shift the tone of the skin or add more [snorts] verdigree to the shoulder pad or something, then that will happen.

>> Uh and and some of that work was actually done by uh other people in the studio after I was done with it, which I should mention. bastards. And um so what's the feedback then? You you're painting along like let's pretend it's not remote then just for ease e ease of thing. You're in the studio, you paint along. Um does an art director come in and say, "Oh, this is wrong. This is this is why we want it to go this way." Like how does it handle your egos, I guess, as painters? Do you do you suddenly realize you're painting and you just have to do what they say? Or >> That's a It's a really good question. I I think there's um it it really depends on the feedback. I think the like an art director coming in and saying this is wrong will very rarely happen. But it's not completely unheard of that someone might come from another department or I don't know um you know a question might come down from on high about what something looks like where it goes against the IP or something. Um most of the time you just have to like roll with

the punches. I think feedback from the rest of the team will most most of the time will be something like this rivet needs picking out with some, you know, clearer shadows. This could do with an extra highlight. Uh you've missed the bullet casings on this gun or now or some tiny thing that you've uh >> Yeah. It's not like, oh, I don't like the direction. I I think the >> No, exactly. It's it's very rare that it's general things >> because you've hashed all that out in the planning process, basically. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I' I've had that happen where someone thought this thing should be a different color. And we had to talk about that and was like, I don't think it's going to look good. I don't think it's going to work. I think it'll clash with this other thing. And honestly, I I'm I'm not just saying this. I 100% think those conversations are for the better because then you get to answer those questions and you get and you become more secure in the decisions you've made.

>> Yep. >> And you know, like you feel like the team is all kind of behind everything. It's literally been signed off at that point, hasn't it? >> Yeah, exactly. And it gets signed off. It's been So that collaborative process is is difficult for the ego, but very helpful. And most of the time, everything I did, I just felt like this isn't mine anyway. I'm just trying to make it as good as it can be for the project. And like if someone has a terrible idea, then in all likelihood, I'm not the only one who thinks it's terrible. >> I I I I realize it's much more company orientated. It's the same with me in coding. I I I don't I'm not going to get defensive or possessive over something I've coded. If if someone wants to rewrite it, just fucking rewrite it or or blah blah blah. Painting obviously is slightly different. Well, it depends on the code, but but generally >> No, I I think that's a really good analogy actually, honestly. Like, it's or you know, you're you're cooking in a restaurant and you're like, I want to add more chili to this. Like, that's not what the recipe calls for, though. You should probably just do it the way it's meant to be.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a little bit it sounds maybe cynical like oh you can't make your own choices but it just >> depends on what you're why you're doing it and the actual like putting brush to putting the brush to the miniature and putting paint on the miniature is um it is a part of it. It's not the whole job and I think every other part of the job was really fun too >> getting to like develop new stuff. >> Y >> um so this is one of uh two things I did for the Leviathan box. This guy was really fun to work on. Even though it's just another ultramarine, there's enough weird things going on.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Another sister color variant. >> Yes. Cheeky. >> And that's the again. Yeah. >> Oh, wow. What? How did we go from like 16 to 25? Did we do 25? I don't think we've seen these, have we? >> Uh, we might have rattled through them quickly before, but yeah, this is all just stuff I worked on. Um, and I didn't really put these in order. It's just a lot of random projects. >> Um, >> it is funny though seeing because I see these models a lot from playing the game. [clears throat] They are literally scanned and in the >> indeed. Yeah, >> TTS. So, it is quite funny to see that you have directly influenced my >> opinion on models. The Sister of Battle is a is a style I actually wanted to replicate.

>> Um cuz I liked it, but then I was like, fuck, it's it's just it's like, oh man, it's just not easy. It's not as easy as you think, basically. >> No. >> Um and that that realize that's annoying when you realize that, you know, like I'm going to have to put time in basically. I I don't want to do that, >> you know. I I I think that that is slowly I'm realizing as well like um why the other style is appealing as well. It is literally because it's faster.

>> Yeah. >> It it it it's not just >> it can be it can be. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean the irony is I've I've learned now that um I spend longer trying to make decisions than I do I painting. Do you know what I mean? Like where does this fucking light go? Where does this that's what I'm spending my time and then doubting and just diving into a pool of shit. Um compared to Yeah. Like this this stuff. >> No, but I I can I can very much sympathize with B when I was talking about sketching and doing it quickly and getting like a lot of the rough light placement down. I I I get why you would want to do that to get anywhere as opposed to spending two days like base coating.

>> Yeah. But at least especially sub how Yeah. Yeah. >> Sub assembly. Yeah. I mean that I can't be >> and especially with sub assemblies because with subasssemblies you can't see how you're doing actually. You can't see how good the miniature is going to become. You need to kind of trust the process and also in some cases just have a have a Photoshop sketch. >> I mean that's an amazing to to be able to do that and get no like reward. >> Yes. cuz cuz you're not right. The only you're looking forward to the moment when you get the reward and that's what's motivating you thinking, "Oh shit, I can't wait to put this together." >> Yeah.

>> So, you did a lot of the Votan then basically. >> Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did 10 uh Hearthkin probably the the regular dudes and then these guys, the Hearth Guard, I did the Hearthg Guard Champion and I did uh that'd be it right. I think that was it. >> Um, I can't help but see the >> bullets come out of of whenever I see a chain gun on a space marine. Um, >> nice >> a question. Um, off topic about I mean topic but not topic. Who designed Oh, no, no. Why did they design still a bit leading the those little midget guys?

What the fuck are they called? Um, >> watchers. >> No, no, no. These guys. >> Votan. >> The votes. The vot. So, the voter [laughter] um why did the why did the trucks look like toys? >> Uh >> yeah, >> I guess they were like inspired by Moonlanders, maybe. >> I wish they weren't. I hate them, but that's that's just that's that's just that's one man's opinion. And um you you don't Yeah, I wish they I wish >> Yeah, >> you wish they live differently.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. I like most of the stuff I do. I like >> I wish I'd painted Azrael's head better. I I feel like he looks shocked in a bad way. He looks like he doesn't know what's going on. >> What? Because it's What part don't you like? Interesting. >> The face. Just the face. >> Yeah. What about like just his >> I think he looks like he's he looks dumb. Like he's just shot himself or something. Got this. >> I was going to say I think he looks like he's got a finger up his ass maybe. But >> yeah, there you go. >> Isn't Isn't that like the the sculpt? >> I I feel like it isn't. I think the sculpt's pretty good.

>> I see. >> Anyway, I'm not here to critique my >> No. No. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. It's all in the past now. E. >> Yeah. It's all in the past. >> This isn't that long ago, right? So, you've done a lot of models that Yeah. This is N&M. >> This I This I painted in May 2018. >> Shit. Ages ago. >> Yeah. That's a crazy model as well. That this is one where you when you see the you see this completely unpainted, just the resin, you're like, "Whoa, >> shit." Yeah. >> What am I going to do now? But >> that almost looks like a metal version like a Juan Diaz one. >> Yeah. No, it's Oh, you mean this?

>> Yeah. Yeah, this. Yeah. >> Yeah, that's uh that's true actually. But this is the new plastic gormaldas. That was really fun to work on. I love this miniature. >> I do like the um Oh, nice. I do like the the um models that have more pieces on. To be fair, we are now just reminiscing, which is fine, but um >> yeah, this is the heavy metal days, and this is uh it was great. And I've I've spoken a little bit about it before. If anyone has any >> specific questions about uh especially if you want me to talk shit about specific people, uh absolutely >> easy.

>> We'll do a whole episode. Yeah, definely. >> Uh so, so if I click this button at the same time as I click that button, um quick as race car. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Didn't we already do one? You're going to do another one. >> This is for your heavy metal time. LG wrote these. Lionel wrote these. Lionel wrote >> the Lionel. >> Yeah, cuz if I say LG, it's too specific. We're like the Anyway, fuck it. First model you ever painted, but were you proud of it? How did that at the end of it? Were you like, "Yeah, that's good. They won't find >> uh the Namorti Thraws was the first box art I did and I was uh happy enough." Yeah.

Um, first day in the studio. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Excitement or terror? >> Excitement 1,000%. It's def That's the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory reference again. >> The first, so I won't give a very long answer. The first day I got in, I got to see all of the new Permar space stuff. All of it. And no one had seen that. >> Did you get free brushes? Yeah. Loads.

>> Um, one thing the studios taught you that nobody else did or or Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, that's a really good question actually. Fucking LG. Um, >> I guess um uh efficiency maybe not to be too precious with some things. It definitely made me be able to like churn out paint jobs. >> Yeah. >> I wouldn't say quick, but efficient. >> Yeah. Become more um factory vibe or or just the ability to to to know to do it.

Um the hardest day or moment that you remember from the studio while working there. >> Also a good question. Um >> thank you very much. >> It would be hard to stay a moment. Um, leaving, I guess. Good sloppy answer. >> When was the moment you knew you had to leave? Was it slow or was it sudden? >> It was slow. >> Yeah, >> I left um I left sort of my own accord in 20 late 2018 and then I came back remotely and blah blah blah blah blah.

But yeah, it was it was slow during that time. >> Did it feel freedom or did it feel like a loss? to to leave >> to leave. Yeah. >> Oh, that's it's that's a very complicated answer, but uh short version is short version is probably Oh, it's a massive combination of both actually. It's a lot of a lot of I I miss it still, but it's it was the right thing to do. >> Yeah. Um what changed most since stepping away? So, since you've stopped working in your painting? uh my uh kind of just uh using whichever paints I want, I suppose. And uh uh and actually trying not to just do heavy metal stuff, >> if that makes sense. I know I'm failing, but like I'm trying not to just stay in that in that uh wheelhouse.

>> I know the feeling. We are brothers in arms in that regard. >> Quite. >> Um and looking back, I mean the answer's

obviously yes. Would you do it all again? >> Yeah. >> Yep. Good. There you go. Fast race car. We can jump back to the cataloges, right? I'll see you there. Hold on. Let me see how >> that was nice. >> Yeah. Hold on. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. So, screen one. Could have paused it, but I thought, do you know what? I won't pause it because I'll be so efficient this time. Um, >> it was very efficient. >> Thank you. >> We're back to Angrod. >> Yeah. So, this is uh Yeah, exactly. So, I I I was working remotely until about 2022 and then I was out properly. This is >> So, now you've left you've left the studio.

>> You're free. You're you're struggling to come to terms with leaving, but you also feel great about leaving and you're like, I want to get straight back on the saddle and fucking paint. Apparently. >> Apparently. Yeah. But what I did in 20 uh early 2023, I started doing Golden Demon stuff for Manchester Golden in Manchester in May. So, this what we're looking at now is part of one of the last things I did when I was in the studio, which was develop the color scheme and iconography for Wolf Spear. the Wolf Spear, which is the only proper Space Wolves successor chapter, the the only one we've had now because they were mentioned in uh a book, I think, the Dark Imperium book by Guy Haley. And then we didn't really know what they looked like and there were some like fan versions of it and there wasn't really anything that was solid. So, we myself and Max decided to just get that done and we did it. And I and I and I now I I think of them as like my chapter, which

is not the case, but I Yeah, >> I'll let you have it cuz I'm the guy who officially says if you're allowed things or not. Was this a hard paint job, by the way? >> This was uh No, not really. I uh I haven't painted a lot of vehicles. It was nice. For whatever reason, I really wanted to paint an Impulser, >> and I thought it'd be great to do something with the Wolf Spear. Uh oh. When we uh we showed them off in White Dwarf, I thought it'd be cool to do something other than just space marines, >> like more than just marines. >> So, I did a few uh different marines as kind of a kill team and then uh this thing >> maybe job taking you like to be >> a tank like I don't know three three weeks maybe working consistently. I don't I think I was on and off this for a while, but yeah, most of the armor I could do pretty quickly.

>> I like the way I said that's good. Like fine. I It is a hu like in my head doing this would take I I just don't think I could do it. It would take forever. But yeah. Okay. If I spent eight hours a day, three I mean you don't work for eight hours a day. Anyone does, but let's say four or five hours painting a day. >> Yeah, exactly. Um, >> yeah, that's another that's another interesting thing that I kind of learned if I don't know if it's something you learn, but I I I um >> it's in like the back of my mind or the from the studio is what I was going to say from working there. I now have a good idea of how long things take to paint if you paint all day every day.

So, uh, for this I would I would know roughly like how much I I guess this the box art would for this would have been close to 20 days, maybe less. Maybe like 15 days. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's >> not a small amount of time, but it's not like 3 months, is it? >> No, exactly. It's not endless either. Like Angron was like 42 days or something, >> which is I mean that's 8 weeks nonstop. >> Yeah, it's a long time in fairness. So now this is now we've moved on to the uh exciting realm of commission stuff. I just wanted to show some stuff I did. So yeah, I did this on commission. Did Asma die on commission. I did uh the lion on commission as well. Um >> so these are all these aren't eb metal actually interestingly. Yeah. I suppose that's why they're on these bases, right?

>> Yeah. And uh yeah, because basically I I was asked to paint this and I asked the guy if if he wants a display base uh because I just think that looks cooler. If it's for display then I appreciate a nice little plinth. Um if you want to play games with them then like why are you hiring me? But obviously >> to each his own. Um, and then this I did for a white dwarf article where the other metal team did an Elar Corsair and generously they uh invited me even though I had >> properly left if I'm not confusing the timelines. I think I was out by then. Anyway, [snorts] doesn't matter. I did it and it was uh very fun.

Very cool. >> This is another commission uh paint job. Uh this is uh interestingly I painted the box art for this so I just did a second one exactly the same as the first. >> Yeah. Easy money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The >> I find it fascinating that you can all all of the painters like stay focused. It's just probably because I haven't painted in so long, but to paint these models um with such detail, you know, it's inspiring because [snorts] it's a it's a real skill. that I am.

>> Yeah, you you do create a method. And I think that's I guess again the the efficiency I was talking about with heavy metal. It it doesn't necessarily feel efficient. Like painting hell brick didn't feel particularly efficient. It felt a bit like a slo, but it is very much a method. It is something or like this guy painting this and subasssemblies trying to copy the box art was like how do I even start? But then you do and you're like, well, I can put this and I and it's it's an interesting skill overall that I'm quite pleased to have picked up is the ability to take something like this and just figure out how to do it.

>> Are you um like how much do you charge? And I'm not asking for a commission. I'm like, and you don't need to go into specifics on money, but like if you get something like this commission in, is this like a month's work, two months work, like how are you how are you charging people? Because >> Yeah, I'm I'm using uh like I just mentioned, the heavy metal timings for stuff is it tends to be somewhat consistent. It's gone up a little bit over the years. So it used to be, >> you know, maybe 15 years ago, it would be like uh an infantryman was one day, whatever that was.

>> And then when I was working there, we had different timings for different armies and stuff, but it was still >> consistent in terms of like >> a space marine is a space marine. A space hero is similar to another space. So uh so the lion I think I estimated about a month. Yeah. About 30 days. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. 30 working days. Yeah. It's quite a lot. >> Yeah. Exactly. 30 working days is is pretty much what I charged for. >> And then I charge >> Yeah. Your commissions must be expensive in in in Well, it's relative to how rich people are, but like it's a real It's not like, oh, I can bang that out in a week. No, it's like I'm giving you my top quality, best thing I can do and and it comes out looking like this, right?

So, >> cuz this is a very unique um thing to have. I think like there won't be many people in the world who have models of this standard to what they're used to seeing in magazines and stuff. So, yeah. No, it's nice of you to say. I I I I thought about that myself actually. This um this uh exactly what you said that when you commission um one of these models for me, you're getting the only one of its kind. Uh you could have another heavy metal painter, another X heavy metal painter paint the lion and you'll have something that's very very similar of course, >> but it's [snorts] not literally the same.

>> Um >> y >> it's it's there's only one of this thing that you're looking at now. And >> if someone asks our now to do it, it will look unbelievable, but it will be our now painting it. So you'll you'll hire him to get him. >> You literally it's a great way to put it. Yeah. And what I can sort of offer uh very like literally and technically is just the box art. You can have what it looks like on the box. And I know for for this one, the only real difference was the customer wanted a different base. But other than that, it was like I wanted to look as close as possible to the box. And I know what that box art looks like and I know who painted it.

And I thought, yeah, we'll see. But that's also a fun challenge, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Do you want commissions now? How have you done that work? Like, do you did you enjoy time doing them? >> I I uh I did. It's um I'm a little bit on and off with commissions. I'm not like full-time doing it now, but yeah, I do enjoy the odd commission for sure. And if someone's uh into getting something, I mean, the there's no harm in just uh writing me and I can just ignore you.

>> Unless it's a project, >> I will not do that. I definitely would. Um, interesting. This photo is not as good as the last. Um, [laughter] never mind. >> Yeah. What's happening with my photos, man? I I'm not proud of this. I need to get my shit together. >> Well, the other ones I know why it's happened because when you zoom in, the the I think the white balance and the changes. That's interesting. >> Well, this was a fun project. This is uh this is a project I did with Edgar Scorovski who used to be a GW sculptor and who is awesome and he just needed someone to paint something for him to um paint to sell. Yeah, he's he sculpts these things. Um and uh and he as he he wrote to me and asked me if I wanted to help him out. It was awesome. It was a great project.

>> It's a very cool weird model. >> It's a very cool weird model. He's got a rocking horse. Um, so that was also something that I it was it's really fun to like have that uh it definitely helps that both of us have worked for games against workshop because all it is is like I just approached it like any other job that I did for workshop and I could get I did the Photoshop sketches and I sent him a bunch of um >> ideas and it was very much that same collaboration. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah, that is cool. Um, >> yeah. Which is the most modern one, right? >> That's the That's the most recent thing I finished, which is a bust of my brother-in-law, essentially, my girlfriend's brother, who [snorts] is a Muay Thai fighter, and who won gold in the Swedish championship last year. [snorts] And I decided, well, me and my girlfriend had a quick discussion about wouldn't it be cool to if I painted something for him? And that sort of escalated to wouldn't it be cool to commission someone to sculpt him? And then once I had suggested that, she was like, you should totally do it. And then I thought, oh, yeah. Yeah, I should.

Fuck. I've suggested it now. I got to do it. Can't just leave this hang. So I uh so I asked Leila Khalili to help me bring this thing to life. And uh it took a few months to to actually have it in my hand, but yeah, it's it was an incredible project to work on. I'm very very very happy I did it. >> Yeah, it came out great. Like it's weird that it's someone you actually know as well. >> Very weird. >> You were literally >> I have so many like have naked pictures of him on my phone. >> That makes sense. And then what about for the model as in Yeah. Yeah, you get it. You get it.

>> Yeah. Um I see there were other photos that I didn't just ignore the order. >> No. Yeah. Ignore the order. This is just the last few years. >> Yeah. >> We're back to these guys again. Fuck it. Um, bunch of stuff. Just bunch of stuff that I did. Uh, another commission thing. I wanted this work. Yeah. >> No, I think what it is now is like I want to I want to not get boxed in to just doing heavy metal stuff. I also enjoy these commissions which are very literally heavy metal stuff.

>> Yeah. >> Uh, I did really enjoy the larger scale of that uh uh bust and I want to try to do more of that. And I'm also obviously still heavily invested in Golden Demon, which takes a lot of time to do. The last few photos in the Golden Demon folder are of things I did after 20 23, which is my Space Wolf Squad and the Dark Earth Barbarians. >> Should we jump back in, Mark? Go through it quickly. >> Uh, let people seamless, right? It's fucking seamless.

>> Seamless. If anyone wants to see Did you have any other like on your list? do it. >> Things to talk to me about. Any segments or anything? >> There you go. No, not really. Here we are. Oh, that's good. It kept the I think I actually have photos of this on my blog. >> Oh, yeah. >> Of on your blog. >> Yeah, because I I went to Gond from 2016. Used to take photos of all the entries and I'm I'm certain I took like a couple of this guy and I liked him. >> Oh, wow. >> So, there you go. It's a compliment. >> Cheers. My pleasure.

>> And this is from 2017. This is just before I joined every medal. I did this and it got a silver. Um, >> this is a jewel. >> Yes. >> It's It's like, is that the sky? Mhm. Good question, mate. Um, [laughter] I'm just trying to get them in the right order. I don't think I can. >> This composition is so weird. Um, >> I see. >> Because I was I was trying to stick to this idea of it has to be on a 50 mil base.

>> So, if it's on a 50 mil plinth and then [clears throat] Yeah. I don't know. I don't think that really works, but I'm I'm pretty happy with the models anyway. >> Yeah. The paint job. I mean, it depends what you're after from a diarama, I guess. Uh, jewel. I mean, it is a jewel, right? So, >> yeah, it's for the jewel category, but like that's just a small diorama. Yeah. >> Um, yeah, I was I was uh I still think this looks great, but it's >> Yeah, there it is. >> But it's um a little weird compositionally with the base and stuff. >> That's different.

>> And then this thing is also 2017. >> Was this the heavy metal the master painter category? >> That's exactly the heavy metal masters. And I got silver, which I thought was embarrassing because I was at that time an actual heavy metal painter. him. Well, Stuart Thompson got bronze and he was the happiest I've I've ever seen anyone in that same. >> My my mindset in 2017 was a little a little weird when it comes to Golden Demon because I was actually disappointed with my two silvers. >> Ah, >> which is I needed to >> Yeah, I I needed to to learn that lesson. I got gold for these guys, which was very very >> in the same year.

>> No, no, no. This was in 2019. So this was two years after after the whole after my first heavy metal stint. I went back to golden ring. >> Very crisp ar >> and I got my first gold for these >> sculpts seem very very good to say. >> Yeah, they're gold. >> That's uh and this was I was very much in like heavy metal mode. Um I mean nothing about this is particularly um weird or exotic or creative >> compared to like just box art stuff. >> This seems it seems different though. It's got a little bit more um relaxed from heavy metal. I don't think you'd see quite the same style. Seems it seems more refined, but also more >> [snorts] >> um maybe not more refined, but more um less just the same, right? Slightly zenal as it were.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Maybe >> like where the highlights are. And well, yeah, if that's what you're going for. >> It it was very much what I was going for. I think uh yeah, maybe I'm maybe it's a bit of a disservice to say that it's just straight every battle, but that was uh I >> think so. >> Yeah. And then that that was the first time I got gold and then I didn't win anything for a whole >> Yes. >> Well, six five five years or something. And we spoke about that previously when we were talking about Golden Demon. It's >> it it's uh like there's something useful about that. I I probably needed to calm the fuck down and and uh accept that you can't have something every year.

>> Yeah. Unless you're good enough. >> No. [laughter] So, yeah. Like, >> yeah, literally. >> It's a it's it's a good way to learn, though. You in fact, it's the only way you can learn, isn't it? Be disappointed, experience shit, and then just look back and say, do you know what? I shouldn't have done that thing that I did that didn't do that thing that I want. I mean, in this case, it's not something that you It's not a thing that you did. It's a thing you It's how you reacted. It's like Lionel with his um bronze, isn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I Yeah, we we've talked a lot about this kind of disappointment and expectation and so on with Golden Demon, but I do think like it's u I was in a weird place in 2017 going to Golden Demon and getting silvers, two silvers, and then thinking like, "Fuck, I really wish I had a gold." But I guess it was because I had gotten silver every year for like 5 years. I got at least >> You just wanted to jump up, right?

>> Yeah, I just wanted that jump up. So, so you know, to be fair, that was it was every time someone says you were this close to getting gold, I was like, >> you're not helping. All you're saying is that someone was that much better than me. >> Yeah. And they were, I guess, >> and they were. Yeah. >> But but subjective >> they were way better. You had no chance. I was like, cool, good. That's at least we're there, you know. >> Yeah. I mean, that's a whole episode, isn't it? >> Competition. >> But yeah, to to to to summarize my whole life, this is how you become an heavy metal painter. Um, I thought for the longest time that it was all about being good enough as a painter, just being able to copy the heavy metal style uh accurately enough. And I realized almost immediately when I started working there that it was so much more about being uh an easy to deal with person and being collaborative and being like a good employee and a good coworker, all of that stuff, >> but with the base level of being able to paint like I'm not walking in there.

>> Yeah. >> So there is a there is a there is a level but then Yeah. Then after that, I guess it's the >> And then the level if you're not quite there, you will get there very quickly when you start working there because you're painting all day, every day. >> Yeah, you have to really like painting. >> I guess you kind of do. >> Okay. Thought of the day. >> Thought of the day. Okay. Uh, seven. >> I know you've got a few on your list now, so I'm going seven. >> I do. You're lucky. Um, I'm just trying to understand it. So, um, this was the one I wrote most recently.

So, when I've over a few men minstral, this is good content, but just fuck a minute. >> Yeah, this is great content. Yeah, >> if you're listening to this and not watching this, you've missed out on a lot of photos and right now we're not even saying anything. So, >> yeah, the closes. This must have been a dream. I must have been writing this when I was like lucid or some shit. My >> know it even more now. You have whatever it does.

>> When I've minstral is closed, but then over a few seconds the other closes and the previously closed one opens. >> The fuck? >> Minstal. It must be my typing. A dream,

an opportunity. [snorts] I mean, this >> one opens, another one closes. >> Oh, shit. >> When one door >> minstrates. You have no idea what you're trying to say. >> Minstrel. >> A minstrel is >> it's the chocolate. >> Yeah. >> Listen, wait. Ms. Mis Mistral. Mistl. Minstal. whatever. Um, sometimes I'm overwhelmed by Oh, this is a bit bit gay to be fair, but [snorts] I'll paint you the scene. Okay. I'm driving >> in the road on a car. I'm in a car driving on the road and I look out the window.

>> What a scene. Yeah. >> And there's just this beautiful field with trees and there's just some people walking on the field and then birds flying over the top, right? And I'm like, it happens every time I drive over when there's countryside and stuff. And I'm like, just how amazingly beautiful the world is. There's so much scenes and and and and and then I was it got me thinking because it I have I have this all the time and it's it's it's annoying cuz then I get all like I get some sort of like euphoria from it and I'm like is it beautiful or is it just that humans have like evolved to see these things like why why would I like countryside and somebody else like looking at a beautiful architecture >> someone likes uh this thing and another person likes this thing. Like is it just that we we evolved to like grass and trees and these things or is it what you're sort of taught to like? Do you know what

I mean? Take some kid out of India who's never seen anything but his slum and put him in the countryside of England. >> Is he going to be like, "Oh shit, that's amazing." Or is he just going to be happy that he's out of the slums? >> It's a good question. And I think uh well good. I I think there's um I think there's a bit of everything here. I think there's a little bit of a biological uh connection. So like we Oh, sorry. This is the thought of the day. You don't want my answer. >> No, let's dive in. >> You have a capacity for what? >> Let's dive in. >> You have a capacity for being happy. I appreciate that.

Um, I think there's a biological connection to things like grass and a blue sky, which is like that's, you know, it's actually >> life, isn't it? And sustaining and >> and uh I guess if we were, you know, nomad homo erectus creatures just wandering the planes, we would think grass there's that's healthy. Things are living there. >> Like just actual shit on the floor. >> Things will grow there. We can eat them. That's a good thing. Yeah. Exactly. But then I think when you said architecture, I feel like that might be a case of people like architecture partly because maybe they like order, maybe like they like the the design of things, things that is AI engineering, things that are controlled, >> which is an entirely different thing, but that might be as you say taught. But I think there might be a little bit of an instinct there as well.

>> Like I can really appreciate, you know, a Victorian train station and it it's weird like why would I like that? But it's because of a billion reasons. I think there's loads of things that I connect to that. >> It doesn't uplift me though. I see some stuff that's beautiful and I don't feel like everything's right in the world kind of vibe. Do you know what I mean? I'm not like when I'm >> You do or you don't. >> I don't when I see the when I'm in the when I see when I have these >> Yeah. When I have these scenes, these moments where I'm like, "Fuck, man." Just like how has life gifted us all these things that we're seeing? Like even when my wife's arguing with me, right? I'll some I'll just break out of the argument. I'll be like like I somehow love that she cares so much to argue with me or just just like like the fact that we've got an opportunity to even argue. It's it's an amazing situation, right? Like like how how >> well it can be. It can also be a very annoying for the other party, I tell you.

>> Yeah. Very fucking derailing and annoying. Yeah. >> I try and keep those those feelings in to be honest with you. Um, [laughter] and then sometimes you say like why are you smiling? And I like fuck I have to explain it now. Um, but I it also I asked Roman Leet. He's French in this accent. Roman Leit. >> He can be Roman Leet. Okay. >> Why do colors have the meanings they have? Right. And I think I've found the answer. Why is it that >> did he ever stop talking or he did you just did he answer that question until he passed out?

>> He stopped feel like he would have a lot to say on this. >> No, he literally he he he was given a thing and I put my hand up. He says, "Yes, please." Um cuz he's French and he thought about it and he was like he must have literally not said anything for 30 seconds. And then he said, "I don't know." [laughter] He said, "That's that is a good question." He said, "I've never not answered it. I've never not answered a question." And he was like, "Wow, okay." And then he carried on with his lesson.

>> And that was like seven years ago. >> You've met him since. You should you should ask for a follow-up >> if he remembers. I doubt I doubt he remembers. I have met him. Like I know him now, whereas at that time I I didn't know him, right? But um it must be >> Sorry. So So the question was what what why do we associate colors the way we do? Is that >> Well, no, I think he said like red is to do with anger and fire or or maybe less explicit because it was more of an abstract question. >> Yeah. But >> cuz I mean there are those things as well. I know that like green is calming and again I don't see that as being very strange because it's >> it's evolution, right? Like >> it's healthy. Yeah. But like the fact that purple >> fire and blood are both red. Sorry. The fact that purple >> like Yeah. But like fire makes sense.

Red makes sense because it's dangerous. >> But then you also have crossovers, right? Like uh brown is is mud, but it's also if you have it in the wrong connotation, it's it's sick and evil. Not evil, but like decay. >> It could be rot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like moldy and rotting. Yeah. And so it's kind of context because you could have green in a river and that means mildew and algae and you can't fucking drink it and die. >> But you have green moss on a on a on a scene and somehow it looks more healthy >> and leaves are green. Anyway, [snorts] >> I think that's why I like these scenes, but I don't always get them in these scenes. I get those feelings of um how how how if you can see it somehow, the world generally is beautiful.

living in the city. I see it a lot less cuz it's just fucking miserable and shit and gray, isn't it? People are people are annoyed they're even alive in the city to be honest with you. >> You know, I was going to ask you what what there is to do in the city where you are, which is classified. And I realized that I'm you're not you're just going to shrug and be like nothing. >> Literally nothing. I live in my room,

which I'm grateful for. [clears throat] >> Thought of the day. Thank you for your journey, Martin. Um, I realized >> Thank you for listening. >> It was much more didn't get an idea on like how to become a heavy metal painter really. I think I think that's the title's going to be a lie for sure. Um, >> yeah. No, but that's the whole I mean, we we do bullshit a lot in this podcast. >> Yeah. And rightly so. Yeah. Um >> I think our six listeners will be that much uh more uh learned now in terms of just just life in general. Like now you know more and now you can go with your own journey and become a heavy metal painter yourselves.

>> And the irony is you can only do that if you're a kid. Um I I really enjoyed the the getting to know you better realistically and understanding where everything's been. I think um weirdly that is a a part of you our relationship that I didn't know I missed. >> So you should probably do mine soon. >> We will do yours soon and it'll be amazing. We need our now for that though. We need more questions. >> Well, we also need you also need uh me to paint because that is a very short story.

>> No, no, see it's not though. It's not though because we we mentioned briefly in my journey that we just were on the years where I was not really painting much. >> That's true. >> Also part of the journey and you said >> uh potentially but we did mention that you got into this the same time that I did when you were a wee boy. >> Yeah, I would probably >> I would have definitely I mean I'm like at 14. You don't see many bull 13 14 year olds do [laughter] that would be good right m thank you all it's been good >> thank you for the six of you please show your patronism by backing the patreon and joining the discord