Painting Gandalf and the Cloak

Was something like that. Want to check it now? Like Fact Check that shit? Oh yeah, you did. Oh, and I was like, yeah, I'll be up for it. And you were like, yeah, OK, So yeah, I don't know what this is like. Let's let this is like a relationship, like let's just see where it goes. Let's not put labels on it, right? Let's not put Season 5. We're not back, but. No, but look, I, I am I, I have missed you guys. I did think about just the other day that it's been ages since we spoke in the real timeline of humanity. It hasn't been that long, but we used to talk once a week and do this thing and now that it's been more than that, like maybe 3 weeks. I think it's been long.

It might. Be like a long time. I think it's been. Six weeks a long. Time, if I had to hazard a guess, maybe 677 weeks, yeah. Just absolutely ages. It is a long time. I mean the fact that I'm now older than I was before substantially I. We have changed so much, each honestly in our own way. Have you? Yeah. Now, now that we are halfway through the year, it's a good moment to do a you know, because Jamie loves it. So much. Yeah, right. It's exactly what it is. It's another reason to. Recap.

It's like happy half year. Jamie, do you know? What it still pisses me off right that I fucking see L GS little shitty discord status and it's what a year right? And I'm pretty sure he's doing that to annoy me, but I'm also not sure he is like, well, it's been on there for years. It's it's been longer than a fucking, I don't know. Obviously it's for pissing you off. I doubt it. No one would send a anyway.

Yes, I it's good to be back. I've done a lot of do you know I didn't even know if I can call it soul searching. I've just, I've found, I've found it in a piece. I mean, I had it before. I'm actually probably less peaceful now and more chaotic. My councillor told me. You've got to start being angry, right? Stop. Start. Stop. I'll start. Yeah, that's that's more like it. It was like, yeah, like, you know, we we can slow down like, well, let's do the sessions like once a month.

Like you're there like we don't really have anything more to like, you know, you've got a clear plan. You're actioning it. You know, you're not following anyone into chaos. You're you. You did a little bit and then you dropped out and. And now you're still sad that you didn't follow it for longer. But actually, you realise it's probably the better thing to do. Even though. Yeah. And. And he was like, yeah. But you know, it's normal for a man to be angry about another man sleeping with someone's wife. Like, that is something that you should get angry about. Like. And I was like, oh, yeah.

All right, And this is, he was signing off with this, by the way. He was like, yeah, we're done. But just so you know, you like, don't let it consume you. Like don't let the anger be you. Don't be some angry. But like when it comes in just like let it wash over you and like embrace it. And I was like, oh, fuck, I like, am I not embracing anger? I was like, I didn't feel angry. I was like, there's no point in being angry because we've got to raise the children, right? And since then I've gotten a little bit angrier, like this was 3 weeks ago maybe. And it's crept up on me now. And you know, I'm, I'm, I'm conscious to not let it like fester, right?

Because I'm still, I'm still happier than what I was before now. Or I will just quickly say this isn't a therapy episode. That's not what I plan to do. Right. So this is more anecdotal than like, but I, I like the concept that he was like, right, we're done. Well done, mate. You've done like but I'm just going to drops in, get angry. Don't you feel like you are a little bit happier by being angry sometimes? Oh. Jamie, do you remember we talked about when I and I said that I was going to therapy for exactly this thing?

Do you remember that this was? Actually. But you. Yeah, Yeah, I do. I do, yeah. Because this was exactly that. It was. It was. It wasn't so much here's a bad thing that happened that I refused to be angry about. It was more like, I've never like being angry or being good at it. So it's exactly this thing and it's, it's just like you said that it's like whatever your therapist said, let it wash over you and then you'll be rid of it. It's something like that. You have to embrace those emotions because no one doesn't get angry, especially people who say they're never angry. That is like the scariest thing I can imagine. Everyone gets angry.

So it's it's more about acknowledging that you do and then kind of sitting with that. Yeah, and let it be angry and then it goes away. It just goes. Away I had anger when that guy on the plane yeah, pushed in, right. I was I felt emotions of anger there, but I was like, no, it doesn't matter, Jay. Like let it go. Like that's not something to get angry about. But that's that's almost the same thing. That's that's you were like so close instead of thinking, no, I don't need to get angry about this. You can think I don't need to do anything about this, but I am angry.

Yeah, feeling. Better yet, yeah, exactly. But just acknowledging like, that kind of fucking sucks. And then if if that doesn't come out at all, it's just going to turn to. To the inside, no. When it did come out, because I was able to talk about it and I felt the emotions. But then I was like, yeah, like, you know, if I had a shovel, I'm not going to twat this guy over the head with it. Yeah, of course you're not a criminal, right, Well. Exactly. That's not really a solution though, yeah. And then? Number of times I wish I had a fucking shovel. With a shotgun. Wow, Oh fuck. OK, shit.

Well, Nah, but that's not a really like like when when that guy crashed into the car, right? It cost me £600 that I don't have anger about that at all. And I, I, I fundamentally still don't agree that like don't get me wrong, I could have spent that on magic or some shit, right? But it doesn't really get me angry. But yeah, OK, so, so don't hide from the anger. And that's what I'm doing now, right? Basically. And I'm, but I am keeping it a Bay a little bit. I don't want that full anger to come out because if it does, it's not like I'm going to top myself or some shit, right? It's more like, and it's not like I won't be in control of my actions, but there's a part of me that it won't help get angry. So I, I have the emotion, but I don't want to be, I don't want to fucking hate said person because that isn't a healthy place to be, right?

So yeah, I'm just like, I'm disappointed. So barring that, does it make me happier? I don't know. I'll tell, ask me in a month. Like I I, I I'm on medication now but I didn't tell you that one on ADD medication. Right. Oh, is it meth? Yeah, it literally is meth. Yeah. Is it good? It's literally called methamphetamine. No, it's called methle ended. I probably pronounced that wrong. Fuck it.

It's it's methy. It's meth. Is it good? Not. Tell me at the end of the podcast. Do I do that like I normally do or do I stay? It's a. Good way to yeah, yeah, it's a good way to to. Work it out like I I've rearranged my entire house anyway, is it? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's the that's the the point of I got excited when I thought about the podcast. So I asked you and now we're here, right? And it's it feels good to be back. It's also bright fucking daytime, as you can see, as are now, Martin, you look the same. Doesn't look much brighter.

It's usually, yeah, sometimes the sun is shining. It's it is now, but it's OK. Is it cloudy?

Overcast. It's a little bit, yeah. Sorry mate. So I, I, I think I might have mentioned this in a private conversation before, but I'm annoyed at Alfonso Cola Aldes right? Because I did his colour theory course OK And he taught me that when it's sunny, colours are more vivid, right? And when it's cloudy, there's less colour. So in a city when it's raining, there's a lot less colour. It's a little bit more Moody, dark. When it's sunny, everything feels alive and blah, blah, blah. And that stuck with me.

And that's 10 years I've lived with that now, knowing that the sun actually makes you feel happier. And when it's raining, it actually makes you feel less happy because there's just less like. England. I always say that England, when it's sunny, it's amazing because the green is almost, it's, it's nuclear. It's the green is so so so green. Green is green that. Is very true. That is very true. It is the mostest country in the world. It's. It's a different green from from what we have in Spain, for example.

Because it's a little drier there, right? Well, Barcelona is very, very humid, but still it's not it's not the same type of green. This is a very. This is like this is. Lord of the Rings green this is like fucking green. This is I do love England. I'm so glad I live here so the fuck ADD pills come on the the green also was no no, no, that was it. I've made the point I thought that's it. He he's opened my eyes to seeing the reality of of weather changes, but. And that's why you're angry with him, yeah. Oh, he took away my innocence.

Because there was another part of the story. Yeah, I thought you were disappointed with something or that he might have been wrong but it but you're. Just like he's absolutely right. Like he just educated me. He was just like. Oh yeah? Well fuck him for that. Jesus. Yeah, what a cunt. Spanish bastard. Is he Spanish or the other one? No, no. She's very much so. Spanish. Fucking Spanish. Spanish pigs. Do you know who I love? Martin. Who? Who is that? Catalonians. They are the best. In the world, the difference? They're fucking just baby quiet. I cannot even start. Yeah, right. So I do love you Alfonso, which I highly doubt you'll watch this, but anyway. Oh, we're meant to have him on the cast that well when we start season.

Five. Yeah, this is 4.504. .5 is going to be amazing. This is have this is mid season break and we're we're just take another one. This is almost like you're married and then you, you, you go and someone has a vet and then you sleep with other women. That's what this is. It's a little halfway house, except that it's the same people. The analogy doesn't work. Obviously it doesn't. No, because normally they don't, right. So what I will say about England, when it rains in the countryside, I've said this before, I think it's amazing because the greens take on a slightly different hue of green and then the earth and the ground.

And when it's, yeah, OK, when it's really grey. But when, you know, sometimes you have that like grey, white cloud vibe where a little bit of sun sneaks through, I don't think there's anything more uplifting than that except for a blowjob. So. That's your list. Of course, just leave that there. I'm going to leave it.

Hang it good. What's what's your hobby looking like? I was, I had something to follow up. I just wanted to let it fester because. Sure, sure. Just want to let it lie on the table for a second. Literally in a in a work meeting today, somebody said it's huge. I couldn't help it. I I didn't say that's what she said, but I went and that was all I needed. I mean, at this point, everyone knows that if you say that's exactly, it's just a universal you, you can't say.

It's got to be like a telepathic joke at this point. I think, I think other people might have thought it right but they didn't want to say it. People are pussies. So I have completely changed the flat since I have moved house. I, you know, came in here, set it up, didn't didn't really think about it. You know, in my in my, in my depressive state, I was just like, that's the house and I was kind of happy. But the painting room was in a dark, dingy room, right? The desk was in a disgusting like in the corner of the house. I mean, it's a flat, It's a fucking tiny, but now it's in a very open.

Can you feel how? How? Hold on, fuck a SEC. Wait, I have to go to the door? And say OK, good luck. You wish you were in Barcelona, where it's nice and cool. Well, where? Where there's air con basically. Yeah, it's for air con's bad for the environment. There's two things I hate in the world, OK? Yeah, I didn't think I'd fly, in fact. Right. The environment, I just want need it now. We are recording just for that. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm very good in the environment. There's the real side of our now, that's the side you don't see on our He's brutal. He sometimes he kicks old people's walking sticks when we're walking down the street, yes, and just says what you fucking old cunt?

It's weird you're talking about. Anger. And he's Catalonian. It's fine. That's the whole thing. That's what they do. And that's why we loathe subscribers, because this podcast is not very good. I've, I'm really excited, right? I I've re, I've redesigned, I forget, I forgot what it's freaking called. TTS. No, Yes, but no. I mean, I quit TTS your flat. I got your hobby desk. Oh yeah, the hobby desk. But that wasn't what I was going to talk about back in They're not working. These pills are shit.

Oh, I've I've redesigned the game. What's the game called? Cot Blusters. Oh what Grot Busters girl? Busters. Yeah, OK. I've redesigned the the the the page. This isn't for now, This is for season 5. We are going to run a tight ship. All right. The the enthusiasm is back a little bit, right? The fire in my belly, the the glint in my eyes, the cock in my arse, it's all there. Do you know what I mean? All we need to do now is just give it a little pump, yeah and I'm going to drag you 2 little shits with me, which is fine because literally what this showed me is we're only not recording because I'm not there basically.

I I am feeling the hype actually for painting. For painting. Yeah. When have you not felt the hype for painting? Well, fair, but I guess there's different types of Yeah, I do have to paint anyway. Yeah, you, I mean, you paint like all that. You are the most enthusiastic painter almost, I know. Like you seem to enjoy it more than more than people who work with it.

Yeah, I yeah, I do believe that it's like that. But also I have ups and downs and maybe some of the downs you you think they are apps, but not for me. It's like, oh shit, I hate it. And and now it's like, yeah, I really want to do stuff. And I've been doing some conversions for a lot of demon stuff and. Oh shit. Are you never tempted on now to like, I suppose The thing is you've got clients, right? But like, instead of posting, this was an amazing project, I love working on it, could you just not post?

This was a fucking drag and this was a struggle and honestly, I'm glad it's over. Like do you think honestly wouldn't? No, I mean literally, I'm paid to to make the figure look as the best possible, not. Only in no, but you can paint it the same level. But you can just be honest. In, in in. I know, but but the the figure look good is not only by making the figure look good, it's also I see by. It's literal, it's promotion, right? It's promotion, yeah. And and not only, not only that, it's not that like I'm lying. I I I never say anything that is not somehow. True.

Yeah, Yeah, like. Because enjoying it depends on you, depends on your mindset, depends on yeah. And I never accept bad figures anyway. Anymore. Anymore.

Some of your backlog, I'm sure there's some shit in there. Certain Dragon I was talking to. I was talking, I was talking to someone the other day and I said fuck, I can't remember what I said. OK, I. Can't remember. What an anecdote, holy shit. It was like something along the lines of like, there's no, there's no hold on. I think she might have written it down for me. There's like there's draw in everything. Unless you're a cunt, basically.

That's right. So like you're painting, there is joy in every. It is a matter of perception. Like, don't get me wrong, it's not true. There are some things where there really are no joy. OK. But if you want to have like an impactful saying, you can't really preface that with, Oh yeah, fuck, you know, this awful thing happened to me. And then some dickhead goes, actually, no, there are some things. But generally speaking, there are great moments. And so which led me in yeah, to your work. Now, I'm not pushing for this, but if I become a box artist, OK, I think I'll, my handle will probably just be Hopper in fairness.

But I would like to be like honest, honest painter, man, right. And then I say how the struggles that I had on it and then I will, you know, unless I get really good, you probably just won't have any followers is the reality. I don't. Yeah, I, I, I some kind of say about the struggles. OK, I've never read it one of your posts. Yeah, OK. I always say that I don't like my figures and that, you know, that I have a hard time sometimes. It's true that I'm not specific of which ones, but it happens less and less every time.

I enjoy more the bit, the figures I I especially choose. And, you know, I choose them very carefully. Yep, I get you. Jimmy, can you just pause for a SEC? So my, it's not a question, right? It's more of an observation. But like, I think there's a correlation between the more you practice at something, the better you get. 1st I'm hearing it. Seems impossible. Yeah, it's just a, it's honestly, it's just like it's AI can feel it like this feeling formulating in my brain, like I can't quite touch it, but I think that's what it is like.

You saying that that's what Arnaud's doing? I think that he's just because he paints more than us, he gets better. Yeah, no, I don't think that's it at all. I think it's something you're born with or not. Just you have it. Like a breakthrough. Like a Like a historic breakthrough. Like, for humankind and race. Yeah, for human. Yeah. Like, that's why I need to have more sex. That's what I'll tell my chick when I'm really bad at performing and be like, look, bitch, right, That's on you. Because if we don't practice more, I'll never get better. And she'll say, do you know what?

That logic is fucking brilliant. I'll see you again tomorrow. And then after five months of it being awful, she'll be like, look, I thought you said you'd get better when you practice. Actually, you've probably got worse. And I'll be like, oh, yeah, you're right. I got lazy. She's like, fuck you piece of shit. And then she'll she'll like, I don't know, spill some oil on me, but it's burning hot. And then I'll go hospital. And then they'll be like, why are you in the hospital? And then I'll have to explain the whole story to them. And then one of them will be like, dude, you're gay. And I'll be like, oh, shit, that makes sense now I get it. Yeah, OK.

Are the pills the correct ones? Did you take the right ones? Oh, they're pretty good. I feel happy honestly when I take these pills right? A lot of pills will do that. It's fucking insane. Just a quick wait, hold on, let's go. I can't, I can't break out of this. See, I'll I'll take them, right? And they don't, they take like 40 minutes to kick in. And then I'll have like 20 minutes of pure, like, unadulterous euphoria, like actual chemically induced happiness. And it's really weird, you know, because why? How is that possible?

And it makes me think that like stuff inside your body is controlled by chemicals. No way. So it's a day of. No way. Fucking crazy, man. Fucking crazy, right?

Oh, now this piece. I think that you have a skill in painting models. Sorry one. When you when you this particular model are now is this colour scheme based on artwork? Yes. Right, so you had a lot of the questions answered beforehand. All of them worked. OK, do you find that that helps? Yeah, it's so, so, so easy. It's just, yeah, the when this happens, usually the the paint shops are like half the time or a bit less or a bit more, but yeah, half the time maybe.

When you paint. Sorry. No, I painted something new these last few days that I haven't shown yet, but Jamie will show in a second. And I painted it in like in, in three days. It was maybe 1012 hours or so. And I think it's, I am actually very happy with it and it's because of the amazing artwork that it had of reference. It made me, it made my life so much easier because it's just translating and translating is very easy. It's like copying when you copy a drawing and then you have to Draw Something from scratch and then you do potato. When you when you have details like so if if we look at like the forehead area of this model, you've got like the hair, the glove, the low snowman, the thing on her. Yeah.

And the things she's wearing are all like similar colors, like a cold white, basically a little green, green, a little blue. How like concerned are you with using different colors to separate them? Or do you just not think about stuff stuff like that? Yeah, no, the artwork is actually a little bit less contrasted. There's there's there's less difference between the colors, so. Because that's often the case, I find with like 2D art, it will be less that, less of that. So what do you do to like separate those pieces? I I try to change the the tone slightly.

For example, the there is in the in the artwork, everything is blue or blue purplish in this case, the the shoulder thing is a bit more purple, the other one is more green, the hair is more turquoise. So I tried to shift that, that colour, you know, it's inherently blue, but then it's not. So thank you, Martin, for pulling me back into the painting world, by the way. I think I needed that. I, I, I refute your earlier comment on it by saying you're tracing because what you've just described is, is not tracing. It's, you've used inspiration and then you've adapted it and pulled it in.

Like, like maybe you mean you don't have to think about the colour scheme, but then you have to adapt. Well, obviously maybe that's the the did you have any struggles with this or was it an easy piece to you to finish? No, I'm actually the the last few figures have been very, very quick and they I it it took me less than a week. This one, the blood letter took me also like a week. The blood letter, you had more, I suppose we'll get to that, right? We've shared it or we've spoken about it before, right? But you had more struggles with that than this one. It's a bit bigger.

It's quite big, yeah. Martin like when? Because especially GW world, right, you've got your colour schemes now a big thing and we've spoken about it, references and shit, a big thing. I definitely is self doubt. I'm like, if I do this, is it going to work? I'll try it, but then I don't want to do something. Well, blah, blah, blah, sketching's the answer, etcetera. But you know, and and I imagine with experience, you, you get more used to it and you suddenly, you know, you have a feeling for it. But do you when you paint non?

I'm trying to think you're non. GW obviously did the boxer right, but he was just skin. So you had to learn how to do fucking skin. But like, is it easy? Are you intimidated by the concept of not having a colour scheme solidly planned? Yes, but I also think that one of the things that I, one of my, the, the, one of the things that I took from working there that I'm the most happy with, I guess the development of is like getting better at developing color schemes. That's that's one of the things that I felt like I got more confident with because a lot of the work is literally developing color schemes and coming up with recipes and coming up with ways where like you can have a color scheme and then translate that to different units across whole army, things like that. So no, I'm, I'm if anything, I feel like we had that discussion a few episodes ago about recipes and like how valuable they are or useless or I know, I think are now feels maybe you think they're a bit like even distracting because it takes away from thinking about things

and making decisions for yourself and and you sort of kind of close that door. And I think if anything, like I want to get better at not having set recipes, but that's recipes. I think color schemes is a little different because it's yeah, there's. So much behind this. Plan, I think. Sorry, what? There's so much behind this color scheme, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. It's not just the color. Exactly. And I think with something like this, I would have been tempted to, which is why I was drawn to, to the question I asked is because I would have been tempted to probably differentiate those areas more and maybe to like the detriment of the atmosphere. I think one of the strong things about our Now's approach is if you start with like an atmosphere and a lighting in a setting, then things can have a very similar tone. And that's not a like a problem.

That doesn't really. Yeah, it's it's. Take away contrast, Yeah. But but color is one thing and tone is another. But then you've also got the new works of it, right? Like, because if I try to paint this piece, not self doubt it just like there's not enough nuance between each each thing to separate them enough, right? Like that that the the scarf and the shoulder, like the shoulder thing and then the other thing like why is it so important? Yeah, because they feel 2 the same probably.

Yeah, but exactly that's the question are now is like, so that's what I was. I would have been tempted to to differentiate them more, but I'm not saying that that's a good thing. I think that would have maybe, yeah. The the I. Instinct would have been. The the reason behind that thought of the differentiating. Oh, you were really asking a question. Yeah, yeah, like why would the scarf? Why would they care about the scarf? No, it's OK. The scarf. Let me try and rephrase. Can you see my mouse by the way? Yeah. Like, so OK, I kind of get down here.

You make make less big jumps between stuff, right? So it's less contrasting and less focal importance, right? So yeah, here let's say like the hair and the gloves and the top are basically the same colour, right? But they're not because you can feel the big difference in them. And that's to do with volumes and lighting. And basically I mean they are. Supposed to be white, so they represent white. They are exactly so the, the, what I mean is they're the same colour, but they're, there's so much in there that you can clearly see they're completely three separate things, right? I, I, I feel like if I were to paint these and even the, I was going to call them antlers.

Uneducated cunt. Crown tiara, probably a better word. Tiara is good. You know they're white, right? So you've got these and the fucking snowman's white. Jesus Christ. Yeah, and the little snowman, too. And the fucking diamond on the thing. So there's, there's five elements there that me would say I can't create enough contrast between them. The hair will be something else. The snowman will be OK white because he has to be. So the gloves are going to be maybe a more turquoise. Now you've done it with reflection and you've done it with, with subtlety and stuff. So my, basically my main point here was if you don't have this like experience, basically is, is the reality.

I was going to say confidence but it's probably experience because I've not painted enough. That's the truth. Enough shit to see when it doesn't work and when it does work. So my my instinct will be. So when you say why, that's the reason, but actually the why is more related to. You probably just don't paint enough to see that you can have stuff the same colour. There is AY, which is readability. That's really all it is if you look at a lot of GW box art. And This is why it becomes a method that is purposeful. Something that that's actually deliberate to, to look a certain way is, is a lot of the time you'll have like maybe like a cowl on a model will be dark on the inside and then the face will stand out. Like that's a good example of how to create contrast in between light and dark.

So like a very literal type of contrast that anyone can understand. Like that isn't something very subtle. That's like we should put the darker color here and then have a light face. But it will also be something like sometimes the way we paint horns will be, you know, light to darker over the length of a horn. But you'll have like a darker like let's say the horns are pointing out like this and you'll have darker on the tips and then lighter towards the head because again, that will draw your eye into the head. It's not accentuated, isn't it? It's like. Yeah, and it's, and it's often a little bit exaggerated and, and very like piece by piece. And you still have to have a color scheme that works across the whole model.

But in thinking about all the little elements like that, you sometimes kind of lose that. Like I was saying atmosphere and what you've gone for here is looking at the whole thing much more in like cohesive sense where like it's not. So like Jamie was saying all of these things that are white. I mean, I there's no way I would have painted those little stones in her diadem and on her arm in the same color. I just, I wouldn't have gone for like a light blue. That makes no sense to me. But obviously it looks good. So it's just interesting to see how well that works when you kind of trust your your gut and trust the atmosphere to do the work rather than look at each individual like these two pieces are next to each other. I need to make them contrast.

Readability is is actually a funny a funny thing that I we have to fight a lot in both sides, either in not having enough and having too much. And readability is one of those things that people use as an excuse to to not to do things or to let things wrong because of it will not read as good if it's not like that and it's not the point. Readability is very important, but we are not that stupid, you know, we can look at things and and a complex things and understand them. It doesn't need to be plain simple. So I guess it's it's knowing where the line is of readability.

Readability is good, but not if it makes your figure too simple or too contrast or to, you know, piece by piece I guess.

But too, too simple, would you mean? What does that mean? Is that losing atmosphere and losing that broader sense of color that you've gone for? Yeah, the feeling, I mean this feeling, this is clearly a winter snowy theme. So whites and Blues, it's basically everything that it needs to have. And yeah, if I put something that it's not cold, then I will break that. It will contest a lot and it will help me with readability massively.

But do I want that? I don't need that, OK. I was trying to find pictures of your old stuff where you've lost or do mistakes. Now, I'm not saying that there are mistakes on this. Oh. There are many. Yeah, but it backs up. Yeah, frustratingly not illustrating what I wanted to show at all. But like, you've got, you've still got tones here and you've got interest, right? Like between there's textures and there's there's blah, blah, blah. It's like, I guess the purple and the Blues are overly contrasting.

It's not realistic. It's more like a fantasy illustration. Right. Yeah. I'm never going for realism. Yeah, no. Well, yeah, OK. But it's a. Different style, but still very good, Tony. Yeah. So this doesn't really, this just backs up the same concept really that that. This, this has a lot of contrast in the way that most people would, I think. Think of contrast in the sense of like the turquoise in the white and the pink in the face. There's like quite not a lot of it. It's more.

Obvious maybe, right? And the tones. And then turquoise. But there's still interest, there's still nuance. It's it's 8 years old to the to the day almost that you did that by the way it. Seems like a lifetime of. Eight years it. Is a lifetime. Yeah, I, I was. In years, man, I was. I was really hoping to find are now a piece of yours where it's flat and and not there isn't. That is one of my first pieces if it's not the. First, maybe I don't think. The Barbarians, The barbarian, it's a very muted, the only great figure, which I really like, actually. Yeah, I love it.

But it's not. It doesn't illustrate. No idea what I was doing but I see it now and it's like it it works. It does work. That's the thing, like this is not a great example to me of where the tones are too simple even though they are. This is that's almost a point. Like this just looks bleak as hell, but it's cool and it's and. And again, aside from being cool, which is a very vague, I do think this is readable. Like this is a perfect example of when you render different textures and materials and they actually stand out, then the colours don't matter as much.

Yeah. But all of his stuff is it's not, it's not helpful for for what I wanted to illustrate or or ask a question, right? Because you have here this piece and the whites, right? Well. Look at the look at the blood letter that if we want to move on with our. Well, slideshow. Because that's also very limited in the in the amount. Of color yeah, but it doesn't illustrate what I'm or or or what I'm trying to push and, and, and dive into maybe I need to look at my own stuff right OK I'm going to pause so OK this is the first model that I've I tried on right the the so.

I clearly like OK, I had to have some of the same colours, but still try to push the bigger things I guess like like for here, like let's say this here and here and even the ABS and stuff like I they're plain surfaces, right? And hold on, let me try and formulate the real question. You you've, you're creating contrast, not by the colour basically. Yeah.

You're creating it by the subtleties and the nuances of the colours in the colours, if that makes sense. Right. So, so like this is white, but clearly it's a heavy undertone of, of turquoise. And so is this. And so is this the only guy here is bluer or less less turquoise right on the snowman. So, you know, the volumes are basically doing the lifting actually in a weird way to to to create enough of you to say, OK, these are three completely separate things. So, so like on here, I guess it's a similar thing. The volume, I mean, yeah, is maybe.

Maybe this is an example then of where there's. I don't think there's too much colour here, but arguably you could have done like let's say a similar tone in the gold NMM as the red gemstones or even the gemstones and the thing on his head without losing that readability because they still would have read his different materials like you've actually had. You've got a different color for every different thing. So the gold is a different color from the red is a different color from the Yeah. You could have helmet down right?

The armor and the blue on the plume are actually different Blues. Yeah. You know, I think yeah, yeah, I do think that it's readable most of it that I actually the only things, the only thing that the the lacking aspect is the structure, the the original core structure of the lights and shadows, the surfaces. For example, the helmet is the greatest example. I don't understand anything that's happening there. It's really cool, yeah. I agree.

But I don't understand the shape. Yeah. And there's no light, there's no direction, There's no. Yeah, and. If you look at the test, if you look at the at the at the body, I don't understand the shapes. By looking at it, I understand the shapes because I understand how 3D works, but but not because you are telling me how. Yeah. There's no. Structure of the body works and that's actually what makes readability. Readability is made by creating shapes that you understand and then those shapes it's it's very simple if if they are one color or the other doesn't really matter.

Yeah, well, I think I learned that from you guys a long time ago. Still haven't painted on it but volumes aren't real if that makes sense. You can paint skin and it can be fucking turquoise but you can make it look real with the volumes. Whereas you could paint someone in human skin and it just looks fucking broken because the volumes and the so the tone is not important. The the shape is the key. I think the one of my favorite examples of that that thing, I guess and using a very clear atmospheric. So what you've what you've done here, we were talking about cold wintry tones that blah, blah, blah.

I think the best example I've seen of that probably is your is it Scotty the barbarian lady? Yeah, that's fucking mind blowing. And and it's cool. I've seen other people paint it, but even just yours, like it's so cold, like that's the word. It's just such a cold looking miniature everything. About it feels like it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a really, it's such a limited palette and then the amount of like magenta that you put into the cheeks to make it a little bit different, a little more interesting and a little more like skin. That's really cool. That to me was when I saw that was like this, really this requires a sense of, well, you tell me, it requires a good sense of like what you're trying to achieve. I guess rather than starting with I'm going to paint the skin a skin color, I'm going to paint that leather a leather color, yeah.

That's a good example. That one didn't have a color scheme, but you know who the character is, right? So you do a bit of research and then you find all these artworks about this character and then you do a bit of a mash up and what's the what's the general point? All of them are trying to make that she's in cold environments always, obviously. So that's what we have to represent, that's. To go to go back here, this, this was the kind of point here, right?

Like this was me in 2018 after this one, trying to do something to learn volumes, to force myself right out of the thing. And this is kind of where I was leading or trying to get to with these 4 colours, right? And larger pieces. Like none of it, none of it really works right? Like this, this whole thing of cohesion and and a single light source or sorry, not single, but like true light sources and volumes like the conceptually, I just fully get that right. I hadn't learnt that when I did this and blah, blah, blah. And I understand this concept now.

Doesn't mean I can implement it, but I know what I try and do, but is to create interest, right? So here, here, here, here, whereas here it's a big open space. Like I'm not saying the model, it's nothing to do with the model. I'm just saying it's a. It does you, you have to fill it in though. I mean like you. You have to, but there's there's an obvious lack of interest in this figure. Yeah, right. But not, not because of the model, is what I'm saying. It's not a sculpted fault. No, but you could, you could make. I get what you're saying.

You would paint this cartoony. You wouldn't. You wouldn't need to paint it. What's the word like? I mean. Yeah, like this, right. You're not do, you're not trying to do it that style like. You would have to invent ways to make it look less. Boring like material or? Rim lights, explosions, any something that gives you the nuances? Yeah. Because there's so much nothing open. Yeah, but that's I mean, you've you've you've I hadn't thought of that interestingly, but that is the kind of point. Like, you know, this scene, right? There's an explosion behind him.

The artwork from The thing is actually what I try to follow, but I missed. There's an explosion on his face here. There's black. This whole side of his face is black. There's big dark recesses. You know, it's like a very clear it's just an anime panel and that's kind of where. So when I get to this stage and what you were saying, Martin, like all, all we're saying is it's interesting. I mean, there's stuff going on. There's there's smaller things, right? They're not comparable. But the at the the core concept of making interesting is the same because I would take this piece and I would still apply this logic, right? I would be doing more open shit like this isn't going to have the, you know, these gems won't look like this. This this glove is not it's going to be OK. I know it.

This glove would be the same fundamentally, right? Like so I guess the first step would be understanding how to add nuances and the second would be painting lots to actually get to the point to understand how to add enough like even this fucking seam that I I assume that's painted in. Yeah. Well, it it is in there, but very, yeah. Obviously. I painted it on top. So yeah, I, I best really what I'm saying is like, this was a bad example because there is enough here to create enough interest.

I still think the sculpt is old and blah, blah, blah, right? This is a better example of what I was trying to get is how do you create interest? Because this is you've clearly, you can see clearly. I I'm using the tools that I knew how to use and that was it. And I'm just trying to, I'm basically smashing this with a sledgehammer because it's what I know rather than thinking, oh shit, how do I get out of this? And this was back when I was like happily painting and fucking up and experimenting, right? So there was no like, I wasn't displeased with this. It wasn't, it wasn't anything like I wanted or how I imagined, but I wasn't like, I was basically more like a kid where I could still make mistakes and not like be annoyed by it, not crippling myself. So yeah, that this I, you know, I accept that I can't get here, but I need to learn how to because that is where my frustration comes a little bit.

I think now I got to this point and I didn't know how to take that next step of going. Do you know what I'm going to, I'm just going to keep painting and find out shit. But keep painting isn't the answer. It's keep painting with questions and then and then maybe you get somewhere like maybe chop this guy in half and and do it as a bust, you know, make it easier for myself, blah, blah, blah. I'm not saying I'm going to do that. Just saying, like, what would be a way I could learn how to, to create interest on a piece? Yeah, outside sources. Martin, do you think you could tackle this? I think, I think I would approach it just like you did. I think it would be fun to start with something completely different.

I started thinking now when you said like, oh, he's black on this side of his face and there's an explosion on the back. Like maybe if you had that idea to start with and you did one side very much in shadow and the other one very clearly lit by something orange, that would be that would be a fun experiment, which is something I'm afraid of. But like, yeah, I would have, I would have done what you did here, which is just a color for the clothes and then another color for the gloves and then another color like that's just kind of blocking everything.

Style is it maybe we've been trained in? Yeah, for sure in terms of like the approach to every surface. But then the the how you render it is like there's a bit more volumetric. But yeah, I guess that that's sort of almost like binary sense of looking at it. The lighting and the shapes is like it's just he's he's a guy and he's standing outside. It's. Actually, this makes me think about the blood letter, because the blood letter is just a red guy. It's just red, literally. And he's clearly lit by something from the side. You can feel it so easily, right? I wanted I needed something to make it interesting to not paint a red guy and it's I actually haven't used red at all in any like it's just pink and and orange but still represents reddish.

I mean, it's so clearly, but this is the whole volume interpretation, right? It leads exactly to that. And what was it that I, I say like your, your, your highlights aren't the highlights. That's, it's the shadows that create the highlights, right? Like you're, you're, you're creating like, like the fact that this is, I guess an orange or pink and it's darker, right? It's, it's, it's not this. And I would, I wouldn't immediately go to a brighter highlighted area because it's got light coming in from the thing. But no, this is where the light is because the light source is blah, blah, blah up here, right?

Smashing down on this. And this is a deeper, darker red because red isn't red is the absence of more white, right? That's why it's a red. So you, you, you, you create this warmth feeling like so. Yeah. But what's so interesting is you can discuss it and think about it, but you can't. I'm talking about me, but you can't implement it. And that that is just the painting and talking and. Yeah, doing doing things is is difficult and but understanding things is it is easy. It kind of easy. It's when there's nothing more difficult to. I think this compared to the One Punch Man figure is like this is the the blood letter to me has enough stuff going on in the sculpt that I would like to to I would be tempted to paint. Well, I'd love to paint that blood letter, but just do it as you know, for lack of a better word, the Games Workshop style. Like every Metal style, but massive, and then exaggerate all the shadows and highlights.

The problem is that it's so big. Yeah, it would be so, so, so boring because it's like this. Right. Yeah, I see what you're saying. And everything in in in red. It's just a lot of red. But Martin, I guess Martin saying something else, right, because his point was not to do it like this. And this is more, this would work better on 28 in the style I've done, yeah. It's just like I feel like the the way you painted the blood letter is all about light, so you almost infer that the skin is red by the colour that the light is.

So one area is lit quite cold and 1 is very warm and then there's almost a gradient in between that's like a neutral red. And I would just like that would be cool to see in more of a kind of Moody, but I guess neutral light setting. So red red, but with very strong shadows and and a lot of like reflective volumes and stuff. But I guess you have a point. If that's a massive figure and all I'm doing is painting the same red all over, it would suck. Well, that's when you start getting out of the OR or disbelief.

I don't know if what the right terminology would be, but when you you know, when you start seeing that it's not, or it is a model like this, there's no, you know, it takes you straight away to knowing that it's. But if you painted this how the illustration is, you would clearly know it's meant to be that style, right? Whereas this is it's like this. I mean, I did as I was trying to say I didn't commit to this. This should be black if you want to go anime style, right and and clear volumes. But my understanding of volumes isn't good enough to be able to competently say, OK, you know, I'm going to block out push, push, push and. Yeah, honestly, honestly, it's your understanding of volume.

It it sounds a bit unfair. I think what you just said is that the the keyword is confidence. That's exactly what it is. You need to commit to painting those volumes that dark. That's exactly. I really think that's the thing. It's not about understanding any real like you need to unlock something in your mind. It's just confidence. You need to really scared. Of fucking up is the key, actually, yeah. What we talked in some episodes about boxes and when you think painting a face and you think how how you know how a face is painted. But if you change setting, if you change lighting, if you change the direction, those things go out the window. There's no face.

It's just the thing that you paint with the light that you have established, but there is no real pattern. You don't even have to see it as a face. It's just a volume, a thing. This is this is that are now philosophy that makes no fucking sense. But it becomes clear when you look at some of the models like there is no face. I mean, this is way too philosophical. Nonsense. For people. But I really think the blood letter to me feels like that. Like, it's not yeah, it's not skin. It's not that red monster.

It's the implication almost because of the lighting and because of this, the setting. It's like, what would this thing look like if it was essentially made of blood? But it's lit from this source. And I think, Jamie, if you were trying to paint this model in this style, I mean, yeah, just like block it in exactly like that. Just do black and then yellow. I. Think I did it and those. Exaggerated lines and then kind of see where you take it from there. I was like, this is shit. It's not a great reference. No, it's not. Yeah. I mean, look, actually I did try, right? I went there. Ironically, this looks better than the piece I've got it looks.

Cool, that's kind of work. As a starter, right? Like, at least as a concept. Shading. There's people that dedicate to the shading and they do it really well and it's super cool. It's just, it's just different. So yeah, but then I was like no and blah, blah, blah self blah, blah, blah. But yeah, that's that's what I wanted to do. Like this is actually how it comes when you buy the. The problem with this style is that it's so much more difficult because you need to get the you need to get the volumes exactly right. If you don't and they need to be separated by a line, they they cannot be rendered. So you need to nail that line, which is very difficult. You need to be very good at it and have a lot of experience. And this isn't something that I was trying to get good at. I just wanted to do it.

I wanted to try. And I guess the actual important point there was I was trying stuff and that I don't do anymore. Right. Like it's this. Yeah, the the I'm bored.

I'm so bored of talking about it. Like we never have to talk about it again until I paint, right. So yes, the blood leather, it's it's interesting. The painting is a hobby. It's not a hobby anymore for me. It's not No, it's not. I realize it. I see. I can, I, you know, I can talk about it openly. I just, I've realized it's, it's, it's stopped being a hobby a while ago. And if it was a hobby, I would do it.

A hobby is a relaxing place. And I've created this, this, this place where it's not relaxing. You know, it's, it's, we touched on it before we broke up. You know, it's there's pressure, there's outside source, there's noise, there's expectations. That's not a hobby, that's a fucking job that you hate. Yeah, we have talked. We have talked about how you need to almost like learn how to like this thing sometimes and come back to whatever it is you like about it. Yeah, it's the wrong. I find for myself and I, I feel like everyone is like this is like there's so much I should so and so rather than like, I feel like doing this thing, it looks fun and cool.

It's like I should do this. I really need to do this. I need to develop this revolve in this way or like, and that's a good that can be a great motivation. I still feel that way about myself. Absolutely, but it's also nice sometimes. Like right now I've decided for a little while to just completely throw all of that out the window and just do whatever I want. We it's around the golden demon, wasn't it? That was like that. It was around the golden demon episode. Like we spotted like actually the huge pressure you put on yourselves and you know, you're spending hours and hours and hours and hours and you're not talking to anyone and blah, blah, blah. It's like you're you're doing it because that's the road that you jump down, but you don't.

And we were joking about how like Arnell's been wanting you to admit that you don't want to paint or like that you are not interested in this. And I kind of, I thought about that a lot of like admitting that and and that sort of relief or just like let it go. Like you don't have to force it. You can still even you can even be completely dedicated to like the hobby and and whatever Games Workshop releases come out or the what other people are painting but not. For yourself. Yeah, I do feel like after that release the the will to paint will come eventually. Yeah, I mean, I get, I, I, I actually thought about not putting my desk back when I I was like, do you know what?

Fuck it, I might do what I now said. But no, now I'm, I'm that desk. There's no paints on that on the desk, by the way. I've got the little places up, but I put them all in the fucking drawer. I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm officially technically done. Like openly just saying I'm, I, I can't paint. I don't want to. I do want to, but I don't, I don't want to want to. So I'm just, I'm just letting it go and just saying, look, you know, wherever I lead to, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll end up where I need to talk. This is our first painting conversation I've had since the last episode. And it does remind me that actually painting is fun. But then I see Saitama PVC and I'm like, Oh yeah, that's why I stopped.

It's not a great scout. It's a very difficult subject. The artwork is difficult. It's not. It's a metric of yeah, success, yeah. Graining with with 100 kilos. Yeah, before you can. Yeah. Yeah. Testicles. Yep. No. Jamie, I've been, I've been playing around with those academic busts that all the companies are doing. Hera models do some great academic busts. Those are good. You're not contractually too obliged to say that in any way, are you? No, no, it's not even plural.

I just, I got one of them, but they, they're nice and I've, I can really understand why people like that. They're very like good practice subjects. And that's hair models. You can find that on what's what's the website, did you say? Yeah. I know you've done box search for them, haven't you? Surely. Couple of them, yeah. Not many. Couple of them. You did fair models. Is that the one you did more for? Yeah. Anyway, a lot of those companies do do those things. It's almost like they're designed to to practice on. OK, oh shit, you won't be what? The fuck am I looking at now? Jamie Clam Crowler. Well, it's not what they call.

You in. The in the artwork. Oh shit. I want to unshare, but then I'll have to like, stop the sharing of the screen, right? Fuck's sake. We're back. We're back. We're back. No. What? Yeah, we've seen it. No, but no one else has because it was on small screen. So I had to do this right. OK, so this right I love it. I fucking love it. OK, now basically what I'm saying is that's the shit that I'm excited to do. I don't know why Cameras.

And if you realize those, these artwork is just two blobs of color, right? It doesn't. Exactly, it's not this, it's not this perfect brush stroke or bullshit. No, it's just feeling and pain if. I see it from this distance it it creates the same feeling as seeing it from from clothes. It's just three colours, the light blue, the dark blue and the and the pink. Exactly, but it's it's everything you need. It conveys joy, right, And that's what I've lost in my painting. I got so I've I've been so focused on Azerman doing the doing the volumes great, doing this perfect right.

And actually, I wanted to do canvas artwork, but that's only so I could create shit like that. But actually, no, I could do that with a model quite easily. In two days, three days, avatar that I'm going to paint. I've got an avatar. I could just put him on a fucking base, build up a thing around him, and an avatar's perfect because he's full fire and shit. Now, it might not work out well, it won't look that good, but it doesn't need to look that good is the key point right now. But the point is, I want to enjoy the experience. I, I, I'm still focused on the ending rather than the journey and the act of actually sitting down and getting away from the desk that I spend all day on and, you know, not thinking about, you know, have I masturbated too too many times a day is five too many, you know, like that kind of thing.

And, and when I was young, I used to eat fish food. You know, I could, I'd just be like, there's a little bit of fish food and I'd just eat it. I wasn't. About food for fishes. Yeah, like a little flakes, right? I'd eat it like I didn't care. Basically I followed what I wanted to do. Right. And I don't do that anymore. And I need to start eating fish food. Yes, please. Right. All right, let's go back. Yeah, and masturbating 6 times a

day. Like do whatever you want. You just do it. And you know what? If you have to go doctors, you have to go doctors. Is that the right one? That's the right one. So aside from all the. Oh the blood I try. No, I large scale. Shit, you've also bought Armageddon and you've converted your more Blood Angels looking Blood Angels for it I. Know I only bought this one for like 10 lbs or something. Oh, you didn't buy the box? Yeah. I think it's a good model and I wanted to make it Blood Angel, sure. Blood Angel layer. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, I did that yesterday and I was, I will paint it if it's, if it's, if it looks cool, maybe we'll go to all the name on why not. I want to do a collection of Blood Angels that look like blood Angels for for real. And I, I did these and I did the the chaplain so converted. Well, I am converting that. Jamie also has that. He will put it now on screen. That Jamie has, oh, the photo. Yes. Oh yeah, this guy.

But that you were you were converting him last year. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I went to do all all types of characters and then maybe present one each year maybe? I don't know. I like the idea. You know what I think about that Captain you did. I think it's the tilt Shields that they have on. Space Marines are huge and it would look cooler if they were smaller. I kind of like them and I was thinking about doing a little free hand you. Should you should absolutely do that. I just, if it was me, I'd I'd snip it off and put on a smaller one.

Just a just a smaller one. Painful, painful reminder there, Martin. Thanks mate, that I've had the snip. Oh. Yes, that's what it that's that was a reference. The word snip always like a stagger. And yeah, I miss my old balls. The Blood Angels cool well. What it's got me, what the conversation has got me thinking as well is like we never talk about the hobby really together. We never do. We like we are just three random dudes who had that as an interest and we run a miniature and painting podcast, but we don't ever really it's interesting. So so I mean, I I'm envious.

I think that's the right word of, you know, like. We're now for having a hobby. I mean, my hobby right now is the app I'm developing and Martin, let me tell you that it's a good app, but and it's a distraction thing, right? Like it's a it's a hobby, but it's only because it's what I find easy and comforting. But hobbies are distractions. It's fine. It's fine to go into hobby. It is your. Yeah, definitely. But but it's well, what I was really going to say, it's like imagine we will have more to talk about when we start talking about the hobby and painting. But how?

It's my dream. But we haven't spoken like, what do we talk about over the last eight years? Well, that that's my that's my try to start talking about things like this yeah, maybe I am sort of hyped about it, so maybe I can drag you I. Am very hyped about hobby. Almost all the time I'm I, I think about Warhammer, especially Warhammer, more than I think I should and more than I care to admit. Is and you mean literal warhammer or do you mean just like the hobby?

Not well, the hobby, but like that. I mean that that that usually manifests as Warhammer. Sometimes the two are synonymous, and I don't think that's entirely fair. I think, you know, our Now's hobby is clearly a lot of it isn't Warhammer. So I just mean that for me specifically, I think about, yeah, I see Warhammer stuff all the fucking time.

I'm also on that train though, in fairness. Oh. Like right now I'm I'm very into new orcs, just a lot about. Yours are amazing, very very keen. I don't like them at all. I I I I said that just to be contrarian. I haven't even seen them. Good I. Know. We know. We know. You're enough, yeah. We know I. Yeah. Oh, there he is. Fuck yeah. Can you hear me smashing the keyboard by the way?

Yes, yes, we. Don't look at that, it's embarrassing. Whatever you just saw, that wasn't, ignore it. It was just magic. It wasn't Fuck you again. A really good illustration in mind of painting volumes without painting volumes, highlights without highlights. I'm. Just. Fucking white on highlights like. See here's here's the thing about this piece as well. Like if you're going to do OSL from a single match, you have to pay respects to the amount of ambient lighting around that match.

That's probably the most important thing. Correct me if I'm wrong or now with something like this, because the amount of light that that match is going to give off is going to vary a lot depending on how much light there is around him. That sounds very obvious it like that, but that's I think people forget that sometimes they'll they'll light the rest of the model very sort of the same way they paint anything and then they're like, Oh yeah, there's a there's a match. I'm going to add a giant OSL flare around around the pipe and it looks kind of cool but it doesn't make any sense and this does.

You lose ambience and you lose the feeling. I think when I, when I, when I see this figure in my hand, I think it's one of the one of my favorites actually. It's like, I don't know it works, but I am really happy about it, which doesn't happen very often. So it's, yeah, I like it. This to me is like the epitome of something that looks moonlit. Like he's outside and he's lit by basically on light and then he's got. That it works a lot better, I think in real life than in pictures, because in pictures there's so much light shed to it, to it, because it's in my, you know, in my picture thingy.

And there's so much light that everything is quite dark. And, and the difference between the, the darks and the lights in real life is, is higher than it is in the picture. In the picture it looks a little bit the darks look lighter than it than they should be. OK, it looks more muted. Yeah. Very cool. Tonality is why I send you the the video, Jamie. Yeah, but I can't. I mean, I could play it I guess actually in fairness, it's just it's just not great HD Ness. Yeah, it's pro. Yeah, it's.

Looks better on a phone, especially with the amped up bullshit Bach. I've got to scroll a long way. Like, yeah, I find, yeah, it's 2 megabytes. There you go. Yeah, it's not there either, but. Nah, but the the candle looks very fucking bright there. It is, yeah, the match. But also because everything is just blue and purple, it's just. Yeah, yeah. So that's what I was going to ask. The tones right on the cloaks, the thought process are not, not that we have to dive in, but.

No, I was going to ask that as well. How do you approach the the amount of color? Like how do you what? What does your palette look like and why? I mean, this one has an artwork, so it it was obviously preferenced with it, but the artwork has a background which also helps. And in this case, there's so much cloak that I had to do the cloak in testing somehow. And I try to do two ways. One is with the brush strokes life like they are not blended.

And then the other one is by changing colors and doing a lot of purple so that way it will contrast more with the orange and the red. It was a way to help the the ambient and the OSL. And even if it's a little bit too blue in the real life, it's not that blue. I I would say it feels a bit more Gray. You know, there's more difference between the cloak and the and the hat. But yeah, it was basically a way to have the flame. Which does I really want to find. So you're.

So you were conscious about the contrast between like, purple and orange as well, like some colored tones, Yeah. Orange, purple, blue are the It's the easiest than one of the most beautiful combinations that you can do in miniature in painting. It does actually look color wise exactly like your little zombie diorama that you did. Yeah, yeah, true. Can't find it? It's probably my favorite combination of color. Red, Purple, blue. Yeah. Orange. Yeah, that's annoying.

I can't find it because this actually ties into like the over tendency, or at least for myself on cloaks, right? I don't think I can find it. Basically when you have a surface like I'm going to have to pause again, right? We're back boys right, so right, so I'm telling fucking Irish like the contrast on is this actually recording yes so OK, that's a really bad example. This is a better example.

So here, OK, now I've I've I've painted over this cloak, like I mean when it was it 2019 over this pink thing many, many times right back before I really understood the like the nuance of the highlight isn't the key and the shadow is the key, right. But this to me is a very like 28 mil vibe really push the contrast up. It's basically white. I mean, you know, it's it's pink, but there's no subtlety there at all.

And I think the volume I don't hate right like here, but it doesn't doesn't create any like subtle to your interests. And then I compare it to this cloak right where it's obviously the the where they are is different. This is night time. This is tone and stuff. But I think that's kind of irrelevant really, because this is the bottom half of a body in my mind. There should be much, much more subtle, much darker, but also there's not. You can't have much interest when you go this high. You could.

I don't think it's bad. I think it's good as it is. I would actually follow what you already have with a small, very thin coat of of some color, maybe some purple, some pink, something that is not necessarily what you already have with airbrush. And I would darken the part closer to the knee, so you have a gradient from up down that it's still, you can differentiate the plane, you can still see how the the whole leg is lit, but you have still a hierarchy that the higher part is lighter than the lower part because this is vertical, right? Almost.

So it's just interest. It's just, it's too, it's doing the same, right? Yeah, exactly. Because the equivalent on yours would be. This is all one big, although it doesn't make sense. No, it would have to be the arm like here, right? Or here would be basically the same color, but creating that variation is difficult because. You have to, yeah, you have to see it as in mid tones. Yeah. So I when I, when I explain to these two workshops, I always put numbers right And you have the highest highlight.

It is a 10, for example. And, and yeah, of course from zero to 10 is very easy to to work. But when you have to work between 8 and 8.3 and you have to do 8.2 and 8.1. And that's the difficult part. But that's the important one because then it's what allows you to do. For example, now that you have the leg and let's say that all that ping is A10, the the next step, which is the the other leg, I would say it's a 5. So if you still put on that leg a 9.5 or a nine, it will still look at and read as light, but it will not, it will not over overstep on the on the other color, if you know what I mean, on the other level. So you still have to play with little differences of of light and shadow.

So the hold on the concept I get, but the it's like small differences make a massive difference in in volume interpretation basically. And when you go too far, you'd, I mean, not that this matters, it's more like self talking, but you'd rather go too low. Or at least you basically need variation depending on the surface and the the texture or the the material, right? But yeah.

That is, in this particular piece of the body, there's one little bit that is very important when, when the leg, the quadriceps goes down and then you arrive to the knee, it does a little bump, so it goes down and then it does another bump, right? And that's how you, you understand that the quadriceps is done and then you start the knee. But you don't see that under scope. You see it as a full as a full volume. And you should see the the little bum that separates the knee and.

The new ones, right? That makes it so. This is just a little. It's not shadow, it's just a little darker light. I guess then you paint lots and then you realise like I can look at it and see why it doesn't work. I hadn't spent a huge amount of time to work out why it doesn't work. I guess the two things that you're trying to portray your gander for mine are different, right? This is a one thing. Whereas you you've like here. It is the same, but we are, we are in different levels, right.

I'm working on a very low range and you're working in a very high range. That's but that's the only difference. Yeah, you're right. I see what you're saying. The range is irrelevant. Actually the yeah, it's the because you still, the goal is still the same. And then I guess, yeah, I part of me thought that this is too bright and this is there's not enough interest and that's what it is. It's so. Frustrating because this in one minute is solved in one minute, I assure you. Interesting. OK, I'll send you the photo.

You bring up Photoshop right now. Yeah. I mean, we've got nothing else to do. I think I understand the like. I don't know, Martin for you. Have you have you done many big scale stuff? No, no I'm not. But it's not something. You're the only sorry what? Yeah, it's not something you'd like you are attracted to. I am, I am. And I, I want to do more of it, but it's, it's what's the thing? I guess I'm, well, I'm intimidated for one thing. I don't think I'm, I'll be good at it. I'm, I want to do Warhammer stuff, I guess. And I'm, I wouldn't say I'm distracted by it, but I'm occupied by it.

That's this thing that takes my attention most of the time, even when I'm finished with one project. I think like, OK, good. Right now this is the perfect opportunity to start working on this bust. I'll, I don't know, prime it and then move on. I've got some things on my desk that I want to work on. Like I mentioned the academic busts, I've got some stuff like that. And I've actually painted a large scale figure that I was given for Christmas. I immediately started painting it because I thought this is just going to go in a box. If I don't paint or 40K large scale or like. No, no, no. 40K large scale.

What does that mean? Do you mean like? Like Elword Coco? Yeah. No, no, not just like, no, no, this was just yeah, this was a dwarf from some company. Yeah. Looked cool. Yeah. So I'm definitely keen to paint more stuff like that and to see how different that is. I thought when I painted the boxer. So my brother-in-law, that was a really interesting exercise in the scale difference from 28 mil. But then the everything we've talked about now with like ambience and lighting is sort of another step beyond that where you start to look at different actual different styles as opposed to just being like a bigger model. Yeah, that's the that's the a part of me thinks bigger moguls, I'm just while I'll now get set up, I wanted to see if I could do it.

A part of me thinks bigger models are like, what's the word? They're the same, right? Like volumes don't change on size, if that makes sense. But a part of me also thinks no, they they do or, or that the amount of like, the amount of shit you need to do in them changes a lot, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know, I'm waffling because I'm concentrating, but this is what I think he's going to do, right? Don't look at my screen now. Something like like that. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I think so too.

Cheers mate. I think one one thing that that occurred to me is like, and this was even, you know, painting Inquisitor miniatures 20 years ago, was that because the models bigger, it doesn't make painting the details easier. It just means you can paint more detail. So rather than going like, oh, I can paint this, you know, gemstone, it's huge. I can paint it more easily. It's like, no, you can just put way more work into that gemstone, make the reflections much more interesting and much, much more detailed. Like, so that's, that's kind of less discouraging or less encouraging, but it's, it doesn't, it's not a problem. It just means that you have to approach it differently. And also that's that's why the sculpts need to be different as well.

It doesn't work to just upscale something massively and then paint it the same way. I I agree, but at the same time I can't get past that. I do still go with that side. I, I realised we, I forgot that we're in the podcast. So I mean, this is it. This is why it's an interim. And it started off great. Had a little bit of a dip with the depression shit while the wife got a little bit better. But you know, we're here and and I guess that's, you know, there's cobwebs when you do podcasts and you've been away. So that's why this is a special because it's shit.

There you go. So just before you do this, right, what I think you explained is that I mean, it was it's obviously very specific to this. So I want to try and not focus on this. But you have you have your planes. OK. Now, first of all, the volumes were slightly wrong on it because there's not enough nuance in it to describe to the person what that body part is or what that plane is or what that volume is. That's probably the best way to say it. And fuck you, I had it. The volume, the body shapes. I did though, but I'm not going to.

It's already a bad episode, so I don't need to make it worse. But cheers me right, hold on. So you've got, there's two things. There's the volume interpretation #1 teaching or, or guiding the person into knowing what that thing is. And then the second point is just the, the values. So when you go higher, like this is quite a high, whatever that value is, let's say 8 to then create that nuanced volume that you want to do, it's harder or you have a, a really smaller range to go into. And that doesn't matter if it's high or low, right?

The point is you've got a smaller range to do it in and then that's where subtlety and colours and whatnot come in on how to actually portray that volume. If you had a a bigger range like Cytammer, the the PVC model where you're trying to do anime style, that's like 0 to 1, like as in or zero to 10. There's no other things you have to nail it on perfectly and then you've got your other cunt stuff. Where's my mouse? Nope, Nope. Yep. Oh, no one can see my screen. All right, fuck it. Like then you have your stuff that you did and the whole thing is you. You.

You're creating more interest and more things by keeping the

range closer, but I guess putting them in the right place. Yeah, actually I will open the. I think, I mean, that was a long explanation if I was to like, condense it down, yeah. So if you erase, if we erase this, this would be the mid tone area. So these little brush strokes that we are finding here, right? This color, this color, this is a bit more purple. This is a bit more.

So you see how they are very similar between each other. They are not exactly the same in some cases I used some some occurs some purple some but is everything is influencing the same Gray, which is a myth on Gray and this little difference between colors is what what is making everything look interesting or not so boring with because it is very boring surface right? There's literally nothing if we tone down saturation, right? And then more or less the volumes are there, but we don't see all this difference between between things. And that's why the brush strokes work, because then you get more information.

But what? It's also it's but it's again, it goes back to the whole thing with the volumes work. Everything else can work around it, but without, as in like you say, you take away the saturation, it still works, but the the different tones make it much more interesting without you realising it, right. You look at the piece and you're like, OK, it feels more natural, more comforting. You can digest it more easily. If that was just black, you know, the shades, it would be harder to read it. Yeah, still understand it, but it wouldn't feel as comfortable.

Yeah, and it would be more. It would be just boring. Yeah, basically like I've used two colors here, 3 clearly or you know, and that's it. I think that's an issue. But yeah, I mean, I don't need to worry about that yet. OK. So I would do two things. One is remove a little bit of light because I think it's very, very light and it's distracting. It's so big that it's distracting from the real important part, which is the the face, right? So I would do this with airbrush. If I if I was correcting it, I would do it with airbrush and I would do something like this.

You could do it. You don't necessarily have to do it with the with the color that you have used. I would do maybe a bit like that and then I would separate the legs a little bit more. We could leave a bit more red some in some areas. It's 30 centimeters tall, this model, by the way, man. Yeah, I suppose the paints in the hand actually give it away. Yeah, A.

Little bit, yeah, Thank you. I've seen this in a cabinet. But when you were walking around your flat, yeah, that's what you were talking about. Are now with the the muscles, the quads and the knee. Yeah. It creates a shape of the leg. Right, I think. Yeah, I agree. I wonder though, how is this overworking? Is this doubting?

Is it like check, check the other photo I sent you in the in the group bar? Now I suppose depending on what else is there like, I'd still argue the the top of the thing could come down a bit, but it does create more emphasis on that part of the body, right? Yeah, I think this one is. I mean, I, I try, I prefer the one, so I prefer this one. This is a good step, yeah. And I would actually I would be in this step if I was painting too.

To be able to bring down. In order to do this, in order to do this, you need this because this is so easy with airbrush. It just literally takes a minute or less to do a couple of layers. And you can do so much stuff like bring some Blues, for example, if you want. It's on because there's a lot of blowing in this figure. I'm bringing some Blues, it would also help. So Gandalf cloak and colours you're, you're, it's not like you're trying to paint realism, but you're trying to make it more pleasing, easier. Happy is not the right word, right? But like, so by adding these different colours, like I almost feel like you need some turquoise in the cloak. Well, there you go like to to to bring coherence because it's such a it sticks out so much the

pinkness, right? And it doesn't feel part of the model when everything else is Blues and turquoises. It's also interesting that I decided to go on a blue cloak. I don't think that blue cloak works very well. So. See how I I'm using now blue for the highlights. Instantly becomes a lot lot more magical and. It ties it together with all the blue that you have already. Yeah, it actually feels like it almost like justifies the the blue tones on the rest of the model a bit like he's in the setting that would have a bit more of a blue light. Yeah.

It makes a big difference. I know you were talking about how the the initial layer that you did with the pink purple that that might actually be worth doing with an airbrush. Yeah, all these that I did would be so easy to except for the blue on the highlights that I would go with brush. Everything else is literally one minute or two with the airbrush and that's it. You, you just help yourself with sculpt to create those shadows, right? You you go and and you should slightly you should slightly from this direction, slightly from this direction.

And then you focus on on this bit, on this bit, on this bit. And you don't touch this, you let it alone. And what you do is you create that that you know, almost being yet around the the area of light with that you want to keep you see that the level of value it didn't change in in this area didn't change in this area, right. It just changed colour value are.

You talking about tinting the highlights blue or adding blue as a colour into the highlights? You could, you could just, you know, use something like this, like a light blue or something like this. But the reason for this is to reduce the emphasis on that area because the high contrast, not contrast, but the weather is contrasting with the rest of it. It's a massive white thing. So there's there's, there's not much nuance in there anyway. So the airbrush will reduce all of that down, take less attention away from it, take less, reduce the attention to it, but also make it more believable because now you understand where the parts are, right? So.

This this volume, if you look at it from the from the side, it should be. I'm not saying that it is because the school may not be, but the the volume should be bitch. So the volume should be something like this, right? And then something like this. But yeah, let's say, and this this area is pointing in this direction, but this area is pointing in this direction.

So the areas that point up, they always have to have more light. The areas that point down, they always have to have less. So when there is a shift in direction, you always have to make it noticeable. And and in this case, I think it's very important and you can also. Yeah, that's also where we get to what you were talking about earlier with number like level 10 highlight and level 8 highlight is that the difference wouldn't need to be that big, It would just need to be noticeable enough that it makes sense.

Yeah, and you can, you can always add as much information as you want on top, but you have to be conscious about the levels that you are working with. And if you want to keep working with those with those wrinkles, you can make them more pronounced if you want to give more, you know, more, more weight to the, to the fabric and more interest. But the, the difference in this in between this is so small, you don't need anything else. You just need.

It's like when you are trying, trying to clean something and there is something that it's not exactly the color, it sticks, it sticks out right. You can see that that's enough. If you want something to stick out, it just needs to be yeah, mildly different than than the colour that you already have. The because this, this applies everywhere on the model, right? Like depending on where you'd want to go and if you wanted the knee to be the main point, then you could bring the the values up and reduce the ones above like blah, blah, blah, right? It's not, it's irrelevant where it is.

The the key concept is, yeah, I mean, it looks a bit better in fairness. Yeah, it doesn't make like painting lost its subtlety to me. Painting lost its subtlety. It's. Painting has lost its subtlety. To me, painting lost, its like, like I see painting as a horse. As a horse, yeah.

And, and it's great. Someone's holding the reins and you're sitting on it, you're trotting along and you're like, this isn't a bad fucking horse, It's a good horse. They're just going in circles, right? And he's happy. And then you're like, fuck it, I'll read a book. And then you're like, shit, I know loads about horses. And then you get on the horse without the guy there, right? And it's fine. You're going along on a little like trot and he's the horse is happy he's walking right? And then you're like, oh shit, do you know what? I want more from this horse? So I'm going to put him into a little like canter and we're going to, but there's no one else there. And then you're like, fuck, I like horse riding and I like this horse. And then you start going into a fucking or, or a dog comes along and scares the shit out of him.

And then you're trying to hold onto this horse for dear life and he's running false pelt and you've got no way to control this horse. And that's where I feel like I am with painting. Before this, I lost sight that I enjoyed horse riding and it was fun to learn how to horse ride, but it got out of control and it didn't. It stopped being something that I could control, if you get what I mean. It became, it became so unruly and unmanageable that I just couldn't, no matter what I thought about doing, I couldn't control this horse.

And then when you take a step back, you're like, OK, now we're back at the ranch where the horses live. I think it's called a ranch. And somebody can guide you and slowly and not specifically a real person, but more like, if you can think about it like that, it's a, it's something you want to do. It doesn't have to be this, you know, this, this there. It turns out there is no dog and you're the one who's scaring the horse basically.

And that's where I'm kind of at, or have been. I'm, I'm creating a monster where there isn't 1. You know, you can go and you can go and sit down and, and, and paint and think about it. Thinking is probably really like, I repainted this cloak maybe three times in the exactly the same way every time expecting something else to come out from it, you know, and I was like, oh, the pink is wrong. The, the pink thing. Yeah. Like, rather than thinking, oh, all right, actually, I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not approaching it right.

It's not my implementation. It's not the, the tones of the pinks or it's just, I'm using 2 colours and, and I'm using whites rather than and, and yeah, fine whites are good if, you know, you're going to go with an airbrush or some shit. But yeah, I wasn't right. Yeah. To be fair, I think you you have it so advanced that it's just a couple of things that you need to finish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then now, no, no, I need like I'm scared now to paint over the something. Not now. It was fucking seven years ago, but at the time, like I'd be like, I can't touch it now because I've got it roughly where I need it.

It's the wrong attitude again in painting. But the point is it's not painting. It's enjoying it. Not damn it looks good. I like this model a lot to be honest. Well done or now? Well, I I did barely anything. You had fun though, right? OK, stop sharing or now and I'll go to the old three view. Painting could be fun.

When was the last time you really had fun with it, Martin? That's, that's the question. That's that, that is the question. I've painted some things because I was paid to do it. I painted some things for Golden Demon. I'm now eager to paint some things just because I feel like it. How long has it been? And not even for Golden Demon is the thing. Because that's also not just because like, obviously I'm not competing against my will, but it's a little like forced. So now having a hobby. I will try to ask every person at Golden Demon that I talked to if they had fun, we should, we should make it the thing, you know. Ask yeah, you're right.

And film it. A really good question. People just break down. When did you last have fun painting? I don't. I reckon that'll be the answer that most people have. Or that. I would say, I would say that most people don't want to admit it, yeah. Yeah, well, Mammy. Exactly. I think, I think we've, we've like romanticized struggling with these projects a bit, especially things like like working really late and, and all of that stuff.

And and like the amount of time Albert spends obsessing over details and all of that stuff, We think that sounds really cool, like the grind is is cool, but also that shouldn't, that shouldn't be the opposite of fun. I think we should remember that that can still be part of the fun. Like I think challenges and and quote UN quote, struggling with your project can be a good thing, but it it shouldn't, it shouldn't just be a slog that at the end of it you're like, wow, I survived this horrible ordeal. The thing is the the massive, massive thing is that it it it may not be so it you can have fun without all this obsession and grinding and and you'll there is there is things outside of that. There is pleasure and find outside of that. We, we, you know, it's a bad state when the question most asked in a hobby is how long did that take? Yeah, right.

Like we said, we've done it before. I always ask people to how? Much have you suffered by painting? This. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and and. And even when it's like when, when Games Workshop did their articles and and posts and reels about David Arroba, you know, it was like, this guy spent 800 hours on this. Like that was like a headline for it. And I thought that's just is a, that's just a high number, but it doesn't actually relate to anything. Like I don't think people can really appreciate what that how much time that is in relation to anything else. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I saw a video where someone was like, I, I spent 100 hours painting this and I was like, that sounds like a lot, but that's like 3 weeks full time work. Not even you know. It's really interesting as well though, right? Because I've, I've been doing the app and the site and I must have spent nearly 89000 hours on that, right? But none of that, not a minute of that hasn't been enjoyable. So it's, it's so weird that the framing of the question, I think at least this is my interpretation. People don't reply me like, oh, it's fucking 800 hours of pure joy.

You know what I mean? Like I fucking loved 800 hours of that. And it's much more like, oh fuck, it was 800 hours. I hate my life. But I think that's because of what's valued in Golden Demon Christmas, like exactness. Yeah, versus basically. But it wasn't that way before, right? It wasn't. It's slowly become like, look at golden demons from the 80s and 90s. There was none of that in there at all. I think. I think certain massive projects might have felt. Like it looked like they enjoyed it though. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

But no, it's just to agree with you. Like, I think those were the only projects where anyone might have gone like, wow, how long did it take you to do that? There's so much work in it. But now we ask that with like single miniatures as well. Like, wow, this looks good. How long did you spend on it? It's weird. Well, because you can't divide what's the important system is based on. Like look at Steen's free hand on his elder. Like I've genuinely never seen anything that fucking crisp and that fucking perfect on a model like this. This is like machine level production to be able to do that.

That's not a that's a skill that is honed over many, many, many fucking hours. And not many people in the world can do that. I'm so sure of that at that level of Christmas, right? Like his avatar and then the farcier. So you can't get that skill unless you're practicing. And that's not a that in itself isn't enjoyable. Like I don't think. I think the outcome when Stan looks back, he sees that and he feels proud and happy and stuff. But the the time to do that can't be enjoyable because it's just. Do you mean the time to practice or the time?

To well all of it to get to that point. I mean, yeah, I pray you probably do enjoy at the start, but I. Think, I think it is, honestly, I think it is enjoyable because it's a slow process and it's not. He's not only got the goal insight, he's practiced freehand on a lot of miniatures, on a lot of different things over many years. And each of those projects, he's gotten a little better and they've been good while he was practicing. I think that's the the point is that we enjoy practicing, not because, because we don't see it only as practice. That's also just having a hobby. I think the literally hundreds of Spacemans that I've painted have prepared me well for the Space Horse that I did. But I wasn't thinking, oh, in 2025 I'm going to do a Space Horse squad.

This is why I'm preparing for. That would make no fucking sense. All of them were like individual projects that I enjoyed and thought were good. It's kind of where I've gone and now at least when I stopped, I say kind of good as if seven years ago was I wasn't thinking about that stuff. I was literally thinking about when I'm good at painting, I can start this project when I'm good at doing that, I can do this when when I know how to do volumes. So I think that's the the the the. Problem for me is, is the space means is a good example because I know I've painted a lot of space means and I enjoyed doing that.

And I, I guess I did it for work, but that was like, you know, time well spent, I guess. And I, and I got good at doing that one thing. But now I'm seeing like areas where I haven't practiced as much, even something as generally as just sculpting and converting. I haven't done that as much. So getting like, what's the word catching up with that means practicing much more deliberately than just doing it for fun. And that's, and we, and I guess we, we've just gotten more stressed. Like all of us in the hobby have gotten more stressed. And we're thinking of those things as like, oh, I need to do this thing so I can get better at it as quickly as possible so I can start doing competition entries with it as soon as possible.

Instead of thinking, I feel like doing this, I'm going to do it. And then whatever happened, 10 years. Yeah, Yeah. And it becomes much more like, yeah. So like that grind becomes much more like I need to accomplish this thing and I need to do it efficiently, but it's hard. I mean, it's hard to just do like, yeah, I'll do whatever I want. And then if in years time something good comes out of it,

then yeah, me, that's hard. I, I think it's impossible and is the reason why. I, I mean, it makes sense why I stopped doing stuff because it wasn't a hobby anymore. Just straight up, it just wasn't right. It was. So yeah. But now I realize that I don't have that pressure to paint and I'm more relaxed, but I still enjoy it. The talking. I don't enjoy the painting because I've still got. I haven't. I can't paint yet. Fuck you. I don't want to talk about it anymore. Yeah, even these sentences of me saying that shows where I'm at with it. Yeah.

Basically because the day that I am actually sitting down enjoying painting for fun, I won't need to say. I, I, I would say that you, you would have to not say anything. Like just do and don't. Don't even say nothing to us. Yeah, the problem is I, I, yeah, I feel it and I don't want to do it, but it comes out because I talk and then, but there's expectations as well, blah, blah, blah. Fuck, you know that was a nice two hour episode, maybe more. Nah. Oh yeah, we started at 12. No, I don't know. Depends on what time zone we're in, but yeah, we started two hours ago.

Yeah, because you're ahead. We must have started way more than two. Oh, fuck it. Enjoy your little special. All right. Sure. Thanks, boys. Have a. Good time. Someday, someday will come the fifth season. Yeah, once we're ready. Don't. I can't wait. We need to run a tight ship though. We have to put those shit together. Yeah, yeah. And actually like, do an episode that's like, you know, I enjoyed it. Hey, don't get me wrong, this was fun, but I want to have like the best podcast in the world. I want to blow those other fuckers away.

Do you know what I mean? Who's that other person who's got a podcast? See mini. I don't. I don't know anyone else. The one that's there's. No other podcasts. Good shout. Oh, I wasn't even thinking good. No, I was thinking Andy and those guys. What the Hell's their name? There you go. They've got a podcast. Yeah, they do occasionally do episodes. I think they also do video episodes. We need to blow them out the water now. The only way we're going to do that is by putting effort in. Do you know what? I'm all right with being the worst in the world.

That's fine. I don't. We don't. Don't want to do that. Don't want to do that. See you later.